Enchelion Derabdur
First Post
I'm glad to see this is still going, I cant wait to see the other jobs.
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Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued
- Thread starter Mark Causey
- Start date
Mark Causey
Explorer
KM,
Will you be including methodologies for tweaking/dialing your system? Like a 'how to make a new job' or a 'appropriate new concepts' section?
Will you be including methodologies for tweaking/dialing your system? Like a 'how to make a new job' or a 'appropriate new concepts' section?
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
The plan right now is for there to be five tiers for HP and MP, from 1/level to 5/level. However, some classes get bonus CON points, increasing their overall hp.
There isn't a great vareity in HP. Enough to make a difference, when taken with other factors, but still on an even enough keel that a party can face a challenge of an equal level and come out using only a certain fraction of their rescources.
White mages are firmly in the "spellcaster" BAB, though they have slightly better damage from weapons, usually. The job list has gone through some changes, however, and now there exists a "Bishop" job for those warrior-spellcaster hybrids.
Modularity is HUGE in FFZ. It has to be -- you should be able to pick and choose and add and subtract enough to get a good feel for any of the FF worlds that we've seen. There's no real specific plans, but each section is full of general advice, and the simplicity makes everything pretty transparent, so it's definately not an arduous process.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Okay, something I'm kind of excited about that I can't wait until the Tribes chapter is done to release (honestly, I've only got about 1/4 more to go!):
The FFZ Initiative system.
Initiative score is 1d20 + Dexterity + Agility - Weight. (Dex + Agi - Wt gives you your Initiative Modifier). If this results in an initiative less than 1, you concede your turn, taking the "wait" action. One cycle of initiative (from highest to 0) is a round. Each initiative score during that round is a single creature's turn.
A character can have more than one initiative score (e.g.: more than one turn in a round). If the result of his initiative -20 is still more than 1, he gets a second initiative turn on that score. If he can subtract 20 again and still be over 1, he gets a third initiative turn. This continues until he can no longer subtract 20 and be more than one.
Initiative counts down from highest to lowest. Performing actions has an effect on your initiative score from round to round as follows. These affect *every* intitiative you have, even if you have more than one, and the moment your initiative drops below 1, you cannot perform any more actions in that round.
-- A full-round action gives you a -10 penalty to your initiative score.
-- A standard action gives you a -5 penalty to your initiative score.
-- A partial action gives you a -5 penalty to your initiative score.
-- Most spells have a casting time that serves as a penalty to your initiative score.
-- A free action gives you no penalty to your initiative score.
-- The "wait" partial action gives you a +5 bonus to your initiative score.
-- The "wait" full-round action gives you a +10 bonus to your initiative score.
On rounds following the first, this process is repeated, but the adjustments from round-to-round do not change. Thus, if you had an initiative score in one round of 16, and you took a full-round action, your initiative score in the next round is 6. If you take another full-round action, you will spend the third round "waiting" as a full-round action, since your initiative will be -6. After this wait, your initative will be at 4 the next round, because the wait gives you a +10. Skilled warriors make the most of every round without running into negative Initiative, knowing when to delay and when to act. Losing an entire round will almost always hurt you more than simply waiting for a partial or full-round action.
Let's do an example of someone with more than one turn in a round -- say a speedy guy rolled high and his first initiative turn is at 42. Quite possible at high levels with certain character builds. He gets a turn at 42, a turn at 22, and a turn at 2. If he takes a full-round action at 42 (reducing his score to 32), he gets a turn at 12, and no third turn. If, on the count of 12, he then performs a standard action and a wait, his turns for the second round will be at 32 and 12 again. If he performs a full-round wait at the count of 12, he'll get his turn at 2 back on the next round.
A slow person who takes his time can also get more than one turn in a round. Say, the knight above did poorly and got a 7 for his initiative score. If he tells his party to hang back behind him, he can wait for 3 rounds (gaining +10 each round) and have an initiative of 37 during the 4th round. Then he can charge forward and level the opposition in one desperate crusade. He can charge as a full round (-10 init, he's now at 27 and 7), and then perform some devestating full-round attack on 27 (another -10 init, he's now at 17), and get to act fairly early in the next round (at count 17). True, for those 3 rounds, he may be vulnerable, but that's where grey magic and curses come into play -- even if they can be healed, they eat up actions and reduce their overall effectiveness.
That probably needs some clarifying, but I like the way it clicks overall.
The FFZ Initiative system.
Initiative score is 1d20 + Dexterity + Agility - Weight. (Dex + Agi - Wt gives you your Initiative Modifier). If this results in an initiative less than 1, you concede your turn, taking the "wait" action. One cycle of initiative (from highest to 0) is a round. Each initiative score during that round is a single creature's turn.
A character can have more than one initiative score (e.g.: more than one turn in a round). If the result of his initiative -20 is still more than 1, he gets a second initiative turn on that score. If he can subtract 20 again and still be over 1, he gets a third initiative turn. This continues until he can no longer subtract 20 and be more than one.
Initiative counts down from highest to lowest. Performing actions has an effect on your initiative score from round to round as follows. These affect *every* intitiative you have, even if you have more than one, and the moment your initiative drops below 1, you cannot perform any more actions in that round.
-- A full-round action gives you a -10 penalty to your initiative score.
-- A standard action gives you a -5 penalty to your initiative score.
-- A partial action gives you a -5 penalty to your initiative score.
-- Most spells have a casting time that serves as a penalty to your initiative score.
-- A free action gives you no penalty to your initiative score.
-- The "wait" partial action gives you a +5 bonus to your initiative score.
-- The "wait" full-round action gives you a +10 bonus to your initiative score.
On rounds following the first, this process is repeated, but the adjustments from round-to-round do not change. Thus, if you had an initiative score in one round of 16, and you took a full-round action, your initiative score in the next round is 6. If you take another full-round action, you will spend the third round "waiting" as a full-round action, since your initiative will be -6. After this wait, your initative will be at 4 the next round, because the wait gives you a +10. Skilled warriors make the most of every round without running into negative Initiative, knowing when to delay and when to act. Losing an entire round will almost always hurt you more than simply waiting for a partial or full-round action.
Let's do an example of someone with more than one turn in a round -- say a speedy guy rolled high and his first initiative turn is at 42. Quite possible at high levels with certain character builds. He gets a turn at 42, a turn at 22, and a turn at 2. If he takes a full-round action at 42 (reducing his score to 32), he gets a turn at 12, and no third turn. If, on the count of 12, he then performs a standard action and a wait, his turns for the second round will be at 32 and 12 again. If he performs a full-round wait at the count of 12, he'll get his turn at 2 back on the next round.
A slow person who takes his time can also get more than one turn in a round. Say, the knight above did poorly and got a 7 for his initiative score. If he tells his party to hang back behind him, he can wait for 3 rounds (gaining +10 each round) and have an initiative of 37 during the 4th round. Then he can charge forward and level the opposition in one desperate crusade. He can charge as a full round (-10 init, he's now at 27 and 7), and then perform some devestating full-round attack on 27 (another -10 init, he's now at 17), and get to act fairly early in the next round (at count 17). True, for those 3 rounds, he may be vulnerable, but that's where grey magic and curses come into play -- even if they can be healed, they eat up actions and reduce their overall effectiveness.
That probably needs some clarifying, but I like the way it clicks overall.
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Mark Causey
Explorer
Indeed, it does seem to form a nice, circular initiative system. I'd suggest having players keep out 2d10 as their 'initiative dice' so that they can keep up with their next initiative, and the GM might keep multiple sets on index cards or such, and combat would always be 'Who has the next highest number?' It seems pretty inspired. Good job!
Interesting.
It makes sense, though I am a little confused in your example where the char took a standard action, and then also took a "wait"
Don't know if any of you played Spacemaster, but in Star Strike (the space ship-to-ship sub-system) there was a sheet that tracked your ships' various statuses from round to round, such as momentum/drift, attitude, altitude, ect. Anyway, I'm already re-invisioning a part of that sheet into an initiative tracking sheet, where the players would track their overall initiative with some sort of tokens, which they would shift up and down as they perform actions. This way, they can keep it live (and not have to re-write their init every action, just slide a token to the appropriate slot..), and still be simple (and fast) enough for play.
Any idea where you anticipate or designed a top limit on possible initiative ranges? Is a 100 or higher possible even at the highest levels?
Can't wait for more...
It makes sense, though I am a little confused in your example where the char took a standard action, and then also took a "wait"
Though if the "and" should be "as", it would follow with what I understand of the rest of the intent of the system. 'Course, I may have just missed something somewhere.
Don't know if any of you played Spacemaster, but in Star Strike (the space ship-to-ship sub-system) there was a sheet that tracked your ships' various statuses from round to round, such as momentum/drift, attitude, altitude, ect. Anyway, I'm already re-invisioning a part of that sheet into an initiative tracking sheet, where the players would track their overall initiative with some sort of tokens, which they would shift up and down as they perform actions. This way, they can keep it live (and not have to re-write their init every action, just slide a token to the appropriate slot..), and still be simple (and fast) enough for play.
Any idea where you anticipate or designed a top limit on possible initiative ranges? Is a 100 or higher possible even at the highest levels?
Can't wait for more...
Another quick question for you;
If the additional actions are based on a -20 modifier, why did you designate the "Full Round Action" as being only a -10 initiative modifier?
(Yes, "Flavor" is an acceptible answer
), though from a purely mechanical pov, having the multiple action modifier being exactly twice the modifier for the "largest" action makes a bit of sense too.
Also (as in "New Question"); if someone with a negative init is forced to perform a wait action, when do they actually do it? For example, they start with a -6 init, they cannot act this round, so do they effectively "wait" on the first round, or are they spending the second round actually "waiting", and can perform an action on the third round (when they have enough positive init to act). Also, in this case of a "forced" wait, does the character/player get to choose what kind of wait (partial or full), or is it likewise a pre-determined option (like always a partial, necessitating several rounds of waits if their negative init is sufficient enough)?
I guess the issue is, especially for the waits, when does the init modifier take effect (beginning of round, end of round, at the modified init rank)? In most cases, an init expenditure obviously takes effect instantaneoulsy/simultaneously at the action; but in the case of the forced waits it seems a bit less cut and dry to me.
Thanks for the update.
If the additional actions are based on a -20 modifier, why did you designate the "Full Round Action" as being only a -10 initiative modifier?
(Yes, "Flavor" is an acceptible answer
), though from a purely mechanical pov, having the multiple action modifier being exactly twice the modifier for the "largest" action makes a bit of sense too.Also (as in "New Question"); if someone with a negative init is forced to perform a wait action, when do they actually do it? For example, they start with a -6 init, they cannot act this round, so do they effectively "wait" on the first round, or are they spending the second round actually "waiting", and can perform an action on the third round (when they have enough positive init to act). Also, in this case of a "forced" wait, does the character/player get to choose what kind of wait (partial or full), or is it likewise a pre-determined option (like always a partial, necessitating several rounds of waits if their negative init is sufficient enough)?
I guess the issue is, especially for the waits, when does the init modifier take effect (beginning of round, end of round, at the modified init rank)? In most cases, an init expenditure obviously takes effect instantaneoulsy/simultaneously at the action; but in the case of the forced waits it seems a bit less cut and dry to me.
Thanks for the update.
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Ok, another question;
Is it through this initiative system that you intend to implement certain grey magic effects? Haste and Slow seem pretty obvious, but how about "Stop" (assuming that you will have that spell)? If so, how will it manipulate the system? Will it be a base -100 (or whatever) mod to init, forcing the char to wait until they are back to a positive init; or simply disallow any actions (including and especially "wait") until the duration of the spell is over?
Sorry, I'll stop the questions for now so you can get back to finishing the Tribes...
Is it through this initiative system that you intend to implement certain grey magic effects? Haste and Slow seem pretty obvious, but how about "Stop" (assuming that you will have that spell)? If so, how will it manipulate the system? Will it be a base -100 (or whatever) mod to init, forcing the char to wait until they are back to a positive init; or simply disallow any actions (including and especially "wait") until the duration of the spell is over?
Sorry, I'll stop the questions for now so you can get back to finishing the Tribes...
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
First, catpeople:
Linkie
Next, answers!
Not entirely. Like in the FFTactics games, you can wait for a full round, or just part of one (still moving or spellcasting, for instance). So if someone executed an attack, and then "waited" instead of moved, that nets out at a 0 modifier. Or if someone moved and then waited, that would net a 0, too. So "waiting" is actually an action you can take, either as a full-round, standard, or partial action. I think a good high-level feat would let you "wait" as a free action, giving you a bit of a bonus to Init without spending time on it.
Not a bad plan. Tokens, dice-counters, all work fine. If I were to make sheets for my campaign (and I probably will), I'd just have a table, with the columns being rounds and the names being rows, since it's pretty easy to figure out when you go next from your highest intiative score.
There's no built-in upper limit like there's no built-in upper limit to total attack roll bonus. But there is a range that can be kind of expected at every level. The quickest characters probably won't be gaining more than 3 turns in a round, not including powers like X-Fight, Doublecast, etc. You could probably engineer a melee-damage-centered thief or ninja, who pumps out more damage per round by virtue of having more actions in which to do it. Such keeps quite in line with the series.
That said, the knight will hit more reliably, more often, and for more damage when he does hit.
Most of the time, you won't have to deal with more than one turn in around, except possibly for the lucky rollers or the characters built from the ground up for lickety speed. Chronists, thieves, ninjas, maybe idols...
The two modifiers are kind of unrelated.
Basically, a "normal round" takes place on counts 20-1. The usual range of a d20 roll, without modifiers. Especially fast characters can go before the round actually begins (on counts greater than 20), and then still get to go during the round (on counts less than 20). Effectively, fast characters can get 2 or 3 extra 1-20 ranges in which to act.
Taking any action, as normal in the series, causes a delay. In a system with ATB, this is easy to do, but it's hard to track combat with a stopwatch around a table, ya? So in FFZ, it's represented with those modifiers (which I'll probably call Delay Penalties or somesuch).
So if you don't take any action, you get to act sooner next round. And if you only take a bit of an action, you can get away without a delay. But if you spend all your energy in your turn, you're going to have to wait longer to be able to recover that.
This is part of it that might need the most clarifying. Think of it as a character's number of turns/round...this score is slightly randomized each round, and can be raised or lowered with certain actions in the round. They have a first turn, sometimes a second turn, rarely a third (and a fourth only for the GODS!)
The init modifier takes effect more or less instantly. A character with a 16 initiative who takes a full-round wait on his first turn will now have a 26 initiative, giving him a second turn on 6. Not next round -- this round. So when 6 rolls around, he can take his second turn. If his second turn is an attack and a wait, his score remains 26, giving him two turns on his next round, too. If his second turn is a full-round spell, his score drops to 16 again, giving him only one turn on the next round. He's already taken his first turn this round, and his score isn't high enough to grant him another. If his second turn is a full-round wait, his score increases to 36. This isn't enough for a third turn, and he's already had the two that an init of 36 gives him, but he gets two turns in the next round (at 36 and 16). If his first turn the next round is a full-round wait, he gets two more turns in the same round (at 26 and 6, now that his total initiative is 46).
Normally, this won't happen. Can you imagine a D&D character doing nothing but chilling there for three actions? And FFZ's abstract combat makes everyone much more vulnerable to potential attack, making it even less likely. Some of the tough characters with high HP might be able to get away with it, but the weight of their armor and their lack of Agility and their generally low Dex will mean that this is more compensating than actually getting high numbers. Some spellcasters might also risk it (especially with knights and paladins and white magicians guarding them), but the delay on their spells is almost as bad as the combined problem the tanks face, putting them in the same boat. High Dex characters can continue to delay, but then they're robbing the party of their most valuable asset (multiple actions) by just standing there. Sure, they could get 5 turns in a round, but generally a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush -- a turn now is worth two turns in three rounds. Especially when the front row is being hard-hit and the white mage is having trouble keeping up.
Furthermore, this kind of complex initiative is only possible because of the abstract combat system. Without having to worry about minis placement and mapping, you can worry about timing and flow, giving things a much more rhythmic, musical feel to it. It's not so much where you strike from as when you decide to strike. You may not get to attack every turn. That's fine. Time your attacks to have the most effect. *use* that initiative!
You got it. Since "waiting" counts as an action, disallowing actions as Stop and Sleep would do, disallows "waiting." Your initiative is locked in place, since you can't take any actions.
Though the idea of granting massive negative initiative is interesting, and might at least give the player something to do while he waits for the effects to wear off.
Haste = +20 Init.; Slow = -20 Init.
As usual, the critters that gain the most benefit are those that are already the best. Haste your Ninja and watch him pump out 8 attacks in a round. Slow the caller and you can sit secure knowing they won't get their big spells off. Of course, haste the caller and they're going to be protected from the slow. Slow the ninja and they won't be able to benefit from haste. For every rock, there's a paper, and for every paper, a scissor. Gray magic, of course, negates these, and white magic (like Esuna) can overcome that, too. But you're using rescources. That Esuna is one less Cura spell the white mage can cast, one step closer to weakening the enemy Samurai, a shift of the battle in your favor.
Gray magic (and effects like it) are key in FFZ in a way they aren't often in the games. Who wastes time with status magic? Those who don't want to be shredded by the first uber-buffed monster ninja/black mage that crosses their path, that's who.
Linkie
Next, answers!
Not entirely. Like in the FFTactics games, you can wait for a full round, or just part of one (still moving or spellcasting, for instance). So if someone executed an attack, and then "waited" instead of moved, that nets out at a 0 modifier. Or if someone moved and then waited, that would net a 0, too. So "waiting" is actually an action you can take, either as a full-round, standard, or partial action. I think a good high-level feat would let you "wait" as a free action, giving you a bit of a bonus to Init without spending time on it.
Not a bad plan. Tokens, dice-counters, all work fine. If I were to make sheets for my campaign (and I probably will), I'd just have a table, with the columns being rounds and the names being rows, since it's pretty easy to figure out when you go next from your highest intiative score.
There's no built-in upper limit like there's no built-in upper limit to total attack roll bonus. But there is a range that can be kind of expected at every level. The quickest characters probably won't be gaining more than 3 turns in a round, not including powers like X-Fight, Doublecast, etc. You could probably engineer a melee-damage-centered thief or ninja, who pumps out more damage per round by virtue of having more actions in which to do it. Such keeps quite in line with the series.
That said, the knight will hit more reliably, more often, and for more damage when he does hit.
Most of the time, you won't have to deal with more than one turn in around, except possibly for the lucky rollers or the characters built from the ground up for lickety speed. Chronists, thieves, ninjas, maybe idols...
The two modifiers are kind of unrelated.
Basically, a "normal round" takes place on counts 20-1. The usual range of a d20 roll, without modifiers. Especially fast characters can go before the round actually begins (on counts greater than 20), and then still get to go during the round (on counts less than 20). Effectively, fast characters can get 2 or 3 extra 1-20 ranges in which to act.
Taking any action, as normal in the series, causes a delay. In a system with ATB, this is easy to do, but it's hard to track combat with a stopwatch around a table, ya? So in FFZ, it's represented with those modifiers (which I'll probably call Delay Penalties or somesuch).
So if you don't take any action, you get to act sooner next round. And if you only take a bit of an action, you can get away without a delay. But if you spend all your energy in your turn, you're going to have to wait longer to be able to recover that.
This is part of it that might need the most clarifying. Think of it as a character's number of turns/round...this score is slightly randomized each round, and can be raised or lowered with certain actions in the round. They have a first turn, sometimes a second turn, rarely a third (and a fourth only for the GODS!)
The init modifier takes effect more or less instantly. A character with a 16 initiative who takes a full-round wait on his first turn will now have a 26 initiative, giving him a second turn on 6. Not next round -- this round. So when 6 rolls around, he can take his second turn. If his second turn is an attack and a wait, his score remains 26, giving him two turns on his next round, too. If his second turn is a full-round spell, his score drops to 16 again, giving him only one turn on the next round. He's already taken his first turn this round, and his score isn't high enough to grant him another. If his second turn is a full-round wait, his score increases to 36. This isn't enough for a third turn, and he's already had the two that an init of 36 gives him, but he gets two turns in the next round (at 36 and 16). If his first turn the next round is a full-round wait, he gets two more turns in the same round (at 26 and 6, now that his total initiative is 46).
Normally, this won't happen. Can you imagine a D&D character doing nothing but chilling there for three actions? And FFZ's abstract combat makes everyone much more vulnerable to potential attack, making it even less likely. Some of the tough characters with high HP might be able to get away with it, but the weight of their armor and their lack of Agility and their generally low Dex will mean that this is more compensating than actually getting high numbers. Some spellcasters might also risk it (especially with knights and paladins and white magicians guarding them), but the delay on their spells is almost as bad as the combined problem the tanks face, putting them in the same boat. High Dex characters can continue to delay, but then they're robbing the party of their most valuable asset (multiple actions) by just standing there. Sure, they could get 5 turns in a round, but generally a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush -- a turn now is worth two turns in three rounds. Especially when the front row is being hard-hit and the white mage is having trouble keeping up.
Furthermore, this kind of complex initiative is only possible because of the abstract combat system. Without having to worry about minis placement and mapping, you can worry about timing and flow, giving things a much more rhythmic, musical feel to it. It's not so much where you strike from as when you decide to strike. You may not get to attack every turn. That's fine. Time your attacks to have the most effect. *use* that initiative!
You got it. Since "waiting" counts as an action, disallowing actions as Stop and Sleep would do, disallows "waiting." Your initiative is locked in place, since you can't take any actions.
Though the idea of granting massive negative initiative is interesting, and might at least give the player something to do while he waits for the effects to wear off.
Haste = +20 Init.; Slow = -20 Init.
As usual, the critters that gain the most benefit are those that are already the best. Haste your Ninja and watch him pump out 8 attacks in a round. Slow the caller and you can sit secure knowing they won't get their big spells off. Of course, haste the caller and they're going to be protected from the slow. Slow the ninja and they won't be able to benefit from haste. For every rock, there's a paper, and for every paper, a scissor. Gray magic, of course, negates these, and white magic (like Esuna) can overcome that, too. But you're using rescources. That Esuna is one less Cura spell the white mage can cast, one step closer to weakening the enemy Samurai, a shift of the battle in your favor.
Gray magic (and effects like it) are key in FFZ in a way they aren't often in the games. Who wastes time with status magic? Those who don't want to be shredded by the first uber-buffed monster ninja/black mage that crosses their path, that's who.
Hiya
Speaking of which, to clarify what I am reading; how often does init get rolled? Once per "combat" as in 3E; or once each round? I had assumed once a combat, but not so sure now.
Thanks for the info. Like the mithra too.
True enough. My question was aimed at the very loose relationship caused by the basic relationship of definitions. Typically (from what has been defined so far), a full round is, effectively, a 20 point initiative time-frame (abstractly, not looking at literal time correlation) which can be expanded due to modifiers, but still have a "natural" state of 1-20. As such, my first impulse would be to consider a "full round" action to take up (as it were) a full initiative round, ie 20 points. It was not as though the concepts were analogous, but somantically linked by the terminology used. However, I later saw that the 10-point "cost" for a "full round" action made more sense (though I can't recall exactly why at this point.. I really should write this stuff down) both thematically and mechanically. I would have dropped it, but I don't really like to go back and edit posts (habit formed on other boards where you have a short time limit to edit, and can't if the post was responeded to). The second assumption spawning the question was the 3E "refocus" action, which grants a +20 to initiative due to the character taking the time to "wait" one round to re-establish their init.
Was just a thought. The only reason for it would be to simulate the ability of certain characters being able to resist those types of effects more; but such is not really (that I could ever tell) an accurate reflection of the spirit of magical effects in FF. Basically, if you wanted your fast character types to be able to shrug off time effects better than your slower characters, the massive modifier system would be useful (if not simpler), especially if they rolled init every round (getting both the "wait" benes and their init mods to "shake it off").
Speaking of which, to clarify what I am reading; how often does init get rolled? Once per "combat" as in 3E; or once each round? I had assumed once a combat, but not so sure now.
Right, got that...
Ok, I got the idea that if he then waits with his second action, he restores/maintains a base init of 26; where I am getting lost is in the "attack and wait" part. Assuming he attacks on "6", would not this immediately reduce his init, thereby ending his actions this round, or is it because he still has an effective init of "1" (6-5=1) that allows the "wait" action to occur now, and wash the attack's init mod?
Thanks for the info. Like the mithra too.
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