Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued

[Cynlas]

Well, I have integrated the "Character Concepts" chapter into my existing D&D campaign without incident, but a whole lot of additional backstory for one of the PCs (whose player is semi new to RP, and so is a little on the shy side of things) to which I have been able to add a bit of additional depth to the campaign (she chose the Repentant Sinner), along with a Free Spirit. Obviously not everyone has chosen one yet, but I also didn't make it mandatory (though the free feats make it desireable).

As I am not a "D20 or Die" type of gamer (having been around far too long for that), I too have looked at the returner system. While I do have a preference to true percentile systems, Returner's FFRPG requires far too much spontaneous and complicated number-crunching to resolve anything in a timely fasion, making it, ultimately, unsuitable for my gaming table, and that is when you are using the pre-calculated setups. Were I one who could produce the mathematical answers "instantly" like some sort of Savant, then maybe it would be playable for me.

While I love complex systems, and would (and have) gladly spend hours creating (and even helping others create) characters and whatnot using complex algebraic formulas; once you hit the Tables, it must be able to function quickly and efficiently. This is where, IMHO, the Returner system falls short, as does other systems I like. For instance, the Phoenix Command system utilized in Living Steel was great, in theory; but in actual play it was too labor intensive to be playable, particularly the combat system where speed and efficiency was needed most. It is also here, in the combat phase, that Returner, again IMHO, falls down.

Anyway, back to FFZ. I certainly like what you have so far, and like everyone else I am anxiously awaiting more crunchies. As you are currently working on the Tribes section, I'd like to ask you for more detail as to why you chose to blur the distinction between social groups and biological races and incorporate them into a single concept of "Tribe"? For instance, an Al Bhed really isn't distinct from a Human other than as a cultural thing (which the idea in D20 is that such distinctions relate to available bonus feats and skills), but a Lupine is certainly distinct in all basic capabilities from a Tarutaru. Further, are you going to include in some future chapter a breakdown of the tribes and jobs available by FF "world" for those who'd like to re-create a particular setting?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, I have integrated the "Character Concepts" chapter into my existing D&D campaign without incident, but a whole lot of additional backstory for one of the PCs (whose player is semi new to RP, and so is a little on the shy side of things) to which I have been able to add a bit of additional depth to the campaign (she chose the Repentant Sinner), along with a Free Spirit. Obviously not everyone has chosen one yet, but I also didn't make it mandatory (though the free feats make it desireable).

I'm really glad it's been force for good. You have no idea. It excites me that you find it useful.

Of course, keep in mind that in FFZ, that "bonus feat" is effectively replacing the feat that every character gets at 1st level. But heck, if it's helping people to get more into their characters, an extra feat prolly won't hurt much.

While I love complex systems, and would (and have) gladly spend hours creating (and even helping others create) characters and whatnot using complex algebraic formulas; once you hit the Tables, it must be able to function quickly and efficiently. This is where, IMHO, the Returner system falls short, as does other systems I like. For instance, the Phoenix Command system utilized in Living Steel was great, in theory; but in actual play it was too labor intensive to be playable, particularly the combat system where speed and efficiency was needed most. It is also here, in the combat phase, that Returner, again IMHO, falls down.

I absolutely agree with this, and that is why I made a descision, early on, to focus on simplicity.

Because while knowing the underlying system that the FF game used to arrive at a given conclusion is interesting, I don't want to stop playing why I do that same calculation with my merely human brain, which is going to be much less quick than the computer. So with FFZ, I have attempted to replicate the simplicity of pushing buttons and getting effects. And I've noticed it's actually more simple than D&D is, at the core. I mean, using abstract combat over environmental combat already removes 1/4th of the complexity from D&D, ne?

As you are currently working on the Tribes section, I'd like to ask you for more detail as to why you chose to blur the distinction between social groups and biological races and incorporate them into a single concept of "Tribe"? For instance, an Al Bhed really isn't distinct from a Human other than as a cultural thing (which the idea in D20 is that such distinctions relate to available bonus feats and skills), but a Lupine is certainly distinct in all basic capabilities from a Tarutaru. Further, are you going to include in some future chapter a breakdown of the tribes and jobs available by FF "world" for those who'd like to re-create a particular setting?

To a certain degree, this was chosen by the games themselves, where the Hypello and the Ronso and the Al Bhed were all different "tribes." Not species. Not races. Just different societies in the same world.

Also, the games dealt with the morphological difference quite simply. Cait Sith was a remote controlled robotic cat riding a moogle doll. And yet he was still subject to crits, he still had all the scores, he still had limit breaks, he still played, in the same way, as Cloud or Tifa or Barrett (who may have had a gun for an arm, but who could still climb ladders and swing on ropes).

So I've taken a similar approach myself: it doesn't matter if you're a wolf-person or a childlike sprite, you're still following the same basic rules as everyone else. Where tribe matters is in defining what you're good at (and, in some campaigns, what jobs you can be). In D&D terms, this is mostly ability score adjustments. In effect, whether construct of stuffing and circiutry, a half-spirit-being from the world beyond, a moogle, a child, or a wolf-person, you're not going to be that dramatically different from the rest of the party in basic capabilities.

It's not harshly realistic, but FFZ is taking a step in many ways away from "realism" in favor of simple believability and playability. You can expect that the wolf-person will be better at living in the wild than a magical child, and that the magical child will be better at using magic to defend themselves than the wolf-person. But the wolf person doesn't get a benefit from having, say, a fuzzy head, anymore than Mog gained a benefit for having bat wings in FF6 (didn't stop him from potentially falling off a cliff, that's for sure!).

 

[Cynlas]

Of course, keep in mind that in FFZ, that "bonus feat" is effectively replacing the feat that every character gets at 1st level.

Ah. I missed that somewhere. Good to know for when we start a dedicated FFZ campaign.

At any rate, the extra feat hasn't pushed the Player's Edge too far, so I don't anticipate any problems with giving it to them at this point. Well just have to see if they survive the Brainstealers (from DM #337) this week...

 

[I'm A Banana]

I hope they survived.

If you're still paying attention to this thread, this is for you: a hastily cobbled together stat block for a first-level Knight job hume!

KNIGHT EXAMPLE (LV1 Hume)
Medium Humanoid (Hume)
Level: 1
HP: 7
MP: 1
Agility: -6
Defense: AC 17/DR 5 (0 active)
Resistance: -1
Magic: +1
Weapon: Knightsword +4 (1d10+3/19-20)
Abilities: Str 16 (+3), Dex 10 (0), Con 14 (+2), Int 12 (+1), Wis 8 (-1), Cha 13 (+1)
Skills: Craft +2, Endurance +3, Diplomacy +2
Feats: Hardiness (B), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Knightsword)
Break Techniques:
Improved Sunder: +4 bonus to sunder attempts; you provoke no attack
(Next Level, @ 250 XP) Defensive: When taking a full defense action, your Defense score is AC 21/DR 9 (0 active)

 

[Cynlas]

Yeah, they survived, mostly...

I've subscribed to all three running threads (that I know of anyway), so I get notified when they are updated.

Cool Knight. As it has been a while (and for the audience), why does his DR go up when acting defensively? I vaguely recall it being part of how you implemented the AC as DR rules, though I could be mistaken.

At any rate, looks cool, and will be interesting to see how it all comes together when other chapters are "published", and certain stats are defined. Even "as is", I can drop it into the current game and see how it works out (though obviously not to its full potential). It will be very interesting (for me anyway) to see how some of those stats were calculated (some are quite simple, like the AB for the sword appears to follow standard 3E BAB+STR MOD, but others a little mysterious, like HP (which under 3e would have to be a D5!) and Agility (Affected by Wisdom, or is it an armor mod?))

Anyway, thanks for the update, and I look forward for more. Sounds like you have far more of the "system" created than has been revealed thus far.

 

[Mark Causey]

Mmm, break techniques. Keep it coming, KM!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Q

As it has been a while (and for the audience), why does his DR go up when acting defensively? I vaguely recall it being part of how you implemented the AC as DR rules, though I could be mistaken.

Well, FFZ basically splits every AC bonus into AC and DR a la Unearthed Arcana's rules. Which means that, normally, when taking Full Defense, FFZ characters gain +2 AC/+2 DR. Knights gain some extra special things they can do with Full Defense -- like gaining a bigger bonus, and covering others, and attracting magic....

It will be very interesting (for me anyway) to see how some of those stats were calculated (some are quite simple, like the AB for the sword appears to follow standard 3E BAB+STR MOD, but others a little mysterious, like HP (which under 3e would have to be a D5!) and Agility (Affected by Wisdom, or is it an armor mod?))

You forgot Weapon Focus! It's safe to say that, at first level, this martial class has equivalent to +0 BAB. The plan right now for HP is to be awarded as a bonus rather than rolled, which means Knights actually have the highest HP in the game (along with some other classes). Agility is affected by an Armor mod, but it's basically Initiative. That -6 is a problem because someone with a high enough Agility actually gets multiple actions in a round.

This guy will get a single attack. He'll hit the vulnerable (and potentially break their stuff) and deal a significant amount of damage. And few creatures will touch him.

Remember, 2 FFZ levels is roughly equal to 1 D&D level, so this guy is technically Level 1/2, or about in line with a Warrior/Aristocrat/Expert kind.

Anyway, thanks for the update, and I look forward for more. Sounds like you have far more of the "system" created than has been revealed thus far.

Mmm-hmm! I'm still hard at work on the Tribes, but the years of work I've invested in this definately haven't gone to waste. I have the system okay, now it's just plugging in the peices and testing it out.

 

[Cynlas]

Yeah, I forgot the WF feat until after posting... I hate it when I do that. :\

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all works. Am I reading it right that this char only needs 250 XP to hit level 2? Or do the Breaks have an XP cost to learn in addition to level minimums?

BTW, what armor is this char wearing?

fun fun fun..

 

[I'm A Banana]

All that is a feature of the FFZ XP system, which gives you twice the total levels when compared to standard d20. Which means that 1,000 XP doesn't give you level 2: It gives you level 4.

And he's wearing the heaviest armor in the game, plus a shield. Knights are a defensive class, after all.

 

[Cynlas]

Kewl Beans.

I also like the ability for this class to attact magic away from other targets that you mentioned, really makes it the defender class it is in the vgs. Sounds like this class will actually pull off what certian 3e PrCs were trying to accomplish.

Also, the "reduced" HP isn't really so bad when you consider its the equivalent of a 1/2 level figther. in the long run, the "converted" hp will end up being a lot higher than a rolled HP of a 3e fighter, assuming that the Knight will earn 5 HP per level...

Are you using a similar mechanic for all the classes, so that, for example, a Black Mage would earn 2 HP per level (1/2 static down of D4), or is it less strictly based on 3E than a true cross corelation? Given the sheer number of classes, and your "heavy HP" class is set at "5", then there doesn't seem to be much "room" for a wide variety of HP. Is this one of the class features, then, that will not be earned at each level-up?

Another "side" question regarding thoughts on BAB; in the FF VGs, White Mages fought (pysically) about as well as their Black counterparts, which is quite unlike the DnD assumption of warrior-preists who are better than scholastics (mages), but not quite up to par with warriors, giving them a mid-range attack ability. Are you going to follow the D20 assumption, or stick to the more appropriate (imho anyway) "poor" bab system for the White Mages (or like UA's variant cloistered cleric)?

Well, thats all for the moment, have other stuff to accomplish before wife gets home.