Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued

[I'm A Banana]

Interesting. I wonder how that will compare to 4e resistances. Are you still using the F/R/W defenses, though?

I'm rolling all the defenses into one over-arching magical defense and one over-arching physical defense. Similar to how 4e is combining Reflex defense with AC, I just go a few steps further, since it is more true-to-the-game.

A little more rolling, but no additional bookkeeping. Just enough to allow for the delay mechanic, yes?

No more than I need, I'm not a fan of much added rolling or bookkeeping. It's kind of a "phase" of your combat round, a la 4e. You first account for any ongoing effects, you then take your actions, and you finally resolve any ongoing effects and apply our delay.

Is this only in reference to strength, or frequency?

Limits will describe about how many encounters you'll have in a day (which is very flexible), though you could always push a bit harder and have more limits or not push to that point and not use limits at all. HP and MP are, as in 3e and 4e, basically per-encounter resources (HP a little less so).

Your reference to limit modes indicate some way of earning them, possibly using a 4e monster styled recharge mechanic, that triggers under certain conditions?

More similar to Action Points than recharge mechanics. It's measured in how many encounters you have. Limit Modes just allow you to gain limits for doing things other than being beaten up in an encounter.

MP using powers like spells are, if styled after the games, usable round after round like an at will power, but limited by MP so it they should be around the power of a per encounter ability. Depending how easily and often MP is regained and what the costs look like, they might be either stronger or weaker. Probably either, depending on power.

You got it. I think that's a key aspect of the games' resource management. But I'll be taking a page from FFT/TA/11/12 and having MP regenerate, so you're not tempted to save it all for a big blast and then spend the rest of the combats just attacking. Use your powers! They're there for that!

Delay based powers sound interesting. Assuming it is some kind of one round initiative modifying effect, you would have strong moves landing more likely after enemies, and faster ones earlier. I can already see using fast powers followed by slow ones to try and double up your actions before the enemy can react. I think was doing the same thing in FFT actually.

That's exactly what I'm trying to replicate, kind of a middle ground between ATB (pretty impossible on the table top) and round-based (makes speed a bit too useless). I also think FF13's round system is going to be interesting (you input a chain of attacks?), so I might end up stealing from that after it's out. For now, the key is to juggle actions so that you release big enough attacks, without loosing turns. If you do loose a turn, it's always your choice (reflecting the 4e idea that losing turns is bad juju).

Ah, so I take it a FF7 themed character with limits wouldn't be balanced if paired with a FF4 themed character without them? Not really a problem I guess, so long as limits cover all the themes you're aiming to use.

Not really -- limits are a blatant power up. That's kind of the fun of 'em, after all. I don't think a diversity of limits will be a problem. A character should have a few different limits at their disposal over the course of their careers, with effects from damage to healing to protection to instant-enemy KO...

You could still play a more "old school" game without them, but you'll need to adhere to the other "old school" considerations, too, in that case. Or just give Cecil and Rydia and Edge limit breaks (come on, you know it'd be cool...)

An early open playtest of the basic mechanics and ideas was my notion, with the disclaimer that some or all of it may be altered or scrapped before actual release. It would be useful feedback methinks.

Well, that's kind of always going to be true. There's definite possibility for this, after 4e comes out, but I want to make sure to loot 4e for all the good ideas it has, and to ensure a sort of compatibility, before I tell everyone to have fun with it.

 

[Exen Trik]

I'm rolling all the defenses into one over-arching magical defense and one over-arching physical defense. Similar to how 4e is combining Reflex defense with AC, I just go a few steps further, since it is more true-to-the-game.

Hmm, I don't really consider the details of the mechanics like that important to port over, but Final Fantasy powers are a fair bit simpler than D&D so it does fit. The only other option is to make powers more complicated than they need to be.

And a little known fact: FF6 has some magical effects that use a different hit rate that is based on stamina. In other words, just like a Fortitude defense!

No more than I need, I'm not a fan of much added rolling or bookkeeping. It's kind of a "phase" of your combat round, a la 4e. You first account for any ongoing effects, you then take your actions, and you finally resolve any ongoing effects and apply our delay.
...
That's exactly what I'm trying to replicate, kind of a middle ground between ATB (pretty impossible on the table top) and round-based (makes speed a bit too useless).

You could keep the same idea and negate the need for rolling every round, just have a single initiative but split it into Normal Fast and Delayed rounds, depending what action you take, or if you are hasted/slowed. Or even split it into five if you want more granularity. Just a thought.

More similar to Action Points than recharge mechanics. It's measured in how many encounters you have. Limit Modes just allow you to gain limits for doing things other than being beaten up in an encounter.

It can't really judge without seeing the specifics, but this sounds like at least a small pain to keep track of, if you need to both remember what conditions apply to it and how often it does. At least it is measured in encounters, and not necessarily a round by round consideration.

You got it. I think that's a key aspect of the games' resource management. But I'll be taking a page from FFT/TA/11/12 and having MP regenerate, so you're not tempted to save it all for a big blast and then spend the rest of the combats just attacking. Use your powers! They're there for that!

If MP regenerates, between battles, so does HP if you have any kind of cure magic about. Might as well just say "restore all HP and MP between encounters". It is simple and effective if you build everything around that, but it does negate the tropes of finding that healing pool or crystal or needing to rest at an inn.

You could still play a more "old school" game without them, but you'll need to adhere to the other "old school" considerations, too, in that case. Or just give Cecil and Rydia and Edge limit breaks (come on, you know it'd be cool...)

Oh yeah it can certainly work well enough, just trying to see how flexible your system is looking. I'm all about games being adaptable and modular, but you know that already.

Well, that's kind of always going to be true. There's definite possibility for this, after 4e comes out, but I want to make sure to loot 4e for all the good ideas it has, and to ensure a sort of compatibility, before I tell everyone to have fun with it.

Well then, I have yet another reason to be exited about the release of 4e.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hmm, I don't really consider the details of the mechanics like that important to port over, but Final Fantasy powers are a fair bit simpler than D&D so it does fit. The only other option is to make powers more complicated than they need to be.

And a little known fact: FF6 has some magical effects that use a different hit rate that is based on stamina. In other words, just like a Fortitude defense!

Simplicity has always been gospel for this game, moreso than I think standard D&D could get away with.

The idea of "all defenses are one defense" is more about compatibility, though. If your rulebook says "Intelligence vs. Fortitude" you're going to want to know how that hits an FFZ character, who doesn't have anything called "Fortitude."

Without bringing in other games, it makes a ridiculous amount of sense -- if you're whacked by a sword, use one defense. If you're doomed by a spell, use another. Most things in the world will be one or the other (even if the spell makes a weapon or if the weapon casts a spell).

You could keep the same idea and negate the need for rolling every round, just have a single initiative but split it into Normal Fast and Delayed rounds, depending what action you take, or if you are hasted/slowed. Or even split it into five if you want more granularity. Just a thought.

Though initiative changes round to round, you won't have to reroll it. But good ideas, I'll be considering them...streamlining the init system while still retaining some idea of delay, casting time, and weapon speed, is going to be a neat balancing act.

It can't really judge without seeing the specifics, but this sounds like at least a small pain to keep track of, if you need to both remember what conditions apply to it and how often it does. At least it is measured in encounters, and not necessarily a round by round consideration.

It's slightly easier to keep track of than action points, and has a bigger effect. It's more like you're charging up your big daily attack, and less like you're fiddling with bonii. And by about the time you have it charged, there will probably be a boss around to unleash it on (bosses are kind of like the monsters' own limit breaks. )

The conditions are under the players' control, each person will know when they start to build their limit break, and because they are so powerful (something like 8 times the power of a normal attack), people will want to light them off as much as possible, right?

Limit Modes are just different ways to charge it up other than the default (which is, basically, when you're bloodied, you start to charge up your limit).

It's partially a pacing consideration, too, coming from a very narrative place. Each day has it's own action arc: it begins, there's rising action that builds to a climax and then ends (basically). As the action rises, you will be approaching your big daily ability, and then, right at the climax, you get to use it.

If MP regenerates, between battles, so does HP if you have any kind of cure magic about. Might as well just say "restore all HP and MP between encounters". It is simple and effective if you build everything around that, but it does negate the tropes of finding that healing pool or crystal or needing to rest at an inn.

Yeah, that's pretty much what the draft document in front of me says. HP and MP as a per-encounter resource. 4e goes in a similar direction, the use of healing surges just makes sure you DO have a finite pool of hp in a day (even if it's full at every encounter). I'm not worried about that in default FFZ, though they're easy enough to add in when you're mixing and matching games.

Well then, I have yet another reason to be exited about the release of 4e.

I'm thinking it'll be the most poachable edition yet for Final Fantasy style adventure.

 

[tyciol]

The way many of the items worked in FF6 was definately pretty cool, I liked how some like the dragon boots actually imparted abilities you used to need a class to get.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So as a sort of general update for this thread (so subscribers will know): most of the development work now goes on in my ENWorld blog (link is, as usual, in the sig). I've incorporated a lot of lessons from 4e and from other games, and it is at a point where it can even be playtested (at least, combat-playtested) if you'd like to give it a whirl.

Pop on over and let me know you're there.