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Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued

Mark Causey

Explorer
Kamikaze Midget asked, and now receives.

This thread is opened to discuss the ongoing creation of a variant ruleset designed to bring forth the flavor of the game series that some of us find very integral and inspirational to our roleplaying experiences, Final Fantasy.

I guess I'll start.

How have you gone about setting up rules that reinforce your premise of "saving of the world and the examination of the characters" versus the standard one of kill, loot, sell, equip, reset?

Are there parts of the FF series that you don't think will work in to your system? Or have there been elements you've put on the back burner, to work on later?

What are you currently working on? Will you feel comfortable giving us your current alpha material for review or discussion? Can we help, or should it be more of a solo project?
 

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NewLifeForm

First Post
I think I've been waiting for this all my life...

Or at least since I read it!

;)

And now, a happy rant (with some regular rant stuff thrown in)...

I must say that I am duely impressed by what I have seen so far. I have always been a big fan of the Final Fantasy series, though strangely, not the games themselves so much. I love the look, the feel and atmosphere and the storylines much more then the gameplay, mainly because I am less of a video/computer game lover and more drawn to Table-Top RPGs.

A lot of the components of D&D and similar role playing games could benefit from a more computer game approach. The skill trees in some of the FF games for example, which include powers and spell-like abilities, are a very interesting and flexible approach to making each character unique without loading them up with gear. You see some of this in the Exalted RPG by White Wolf.

One computer game I do play and love is World of Warcraft. While gear and magic items do play a part in your character's effectiveness (especially for the Warrior), each and every character can do something cool that is needed to handle the larger opponents.

I've been seeing more and more reference to the fact that 3E and 3.5 have made the PCs into piles of magic items with modifiers. I agree to some extent, but what bugs me most is that the innovation of feats is largely the cause. I imagined feats differently when they were first described and before the game came out. I pictured them more varied and giving players things that would really make them stand out and seem like gifted heroes. At first level 8 out of ten players take either power attack, the starting arrow feat or perhaps one other. Why is there only one starting arrow feat? Why not 3? Why not a few different feats that give abilities (absolute time sense, well connected/noble birth, expert caster/reduced casting time) instead of +1 this, +1 that.

FFZ seems like a really good approach to solving many of these issues while at the same time tying the feats and abilities directly to the characters story and the world he/she/it is in. I can't wait to see more of this. I would especially like to see the FFZ magic system if it can handle the stylings of Red Mage, White Mage, Caller, etc., as the D&D magic system is my least favorite part of that game. I'd even like to help, though it seems KM is far more versed on the subject then I am. Need some anime style fan art? :heh:

And now the biggest praise I can give any product...based on what I've seen so far, if it were a $40 hardcover RPG book, I'd buy two!*

Good luck and keep on going,
NewLifeForm

*As the GM of my group I tend to buy 2 copies of most games if I buy them at all. Why? Mainly it's one for me (which I hide away in the house somewhere and pull out when I'm working on my campaign) and another for the players to look at during play.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Thanks a lot for the scads of praise. It really helps me when I'm staring lines of wealth by level charts in the face. :)

How have you gone about setting up rules that reinforce your premise of "saving of the world and the examination of the characters" versus the standard one of kill, loot, sell, equip, reset?

This is a question with a BIG answer. Let's say it starts with the DM structure of the game. Though I'm starting with player information, FFZ gives crazy love to DM's in setting up a unique kind of feel. And it does so in more detail than the core DMG. See, 3e was definately cautious about not telling particular DM's that they're "playing the game wrong" if they play it differently. FFZ, on the other hand, is not shy about telling DM's how to get what they want out of the game. And if they're playinng FFZ, there's a solid chance they want a table-top game that plays something like a Final Fantasy game. So advice includes story structure, villain design, monster placement, job and tribe choices...in effect, it helps you to make selections for your game that reinforce a particular theme, depending on the campaign you're going for. And how every encounter should reinforce the ideas that are central to your campaign. In FFZ, there are no truly "random" encounters. Every monster has a motive to exist, and a cause behind its violent attacks. So that random ogre ambush on the side of the road doesn't just exist to roll some dice around -- it exists to show, for instance, how a typical giantish society operates. And later in the game, as you become diplomatic emmisarries to the giants, this ambush becomes important material for your characters to know.

Aside from solid and reliable DM advice (which I'm rediculously proud of -- making DM's think extensively about every die roll they ask the players to make), there is the fact that character choices come from the concepts. Mechanics are chosen to support these ideas. When you get a +1 to attack, the origin and development of your character and the world is expanded on. There is a reason you are better than you were beyond "I beat up more goblins." For some D&D games that would be too much micro-management, but FFZ liberates players and DM's to consider this kind of thing, because the measurable powers of the character are largely accounted for in the job. If you're not managing equipment and assigning various bonses, that's an extra few minutes in play that you have to build relationships and explore motives. This is especially important for the DM, who has to crunch the most numbers anyway. The mechanics of FFZ have been simplified as much as possible -- there's even an option for completely abstract combat (for the best videogame feel). When playing an FF game, number-crunching is something the computer does for you. In playing FFZ, number-crunching is what you do before you get to the table, more or less.

Combine that with multiple characters, easy resurrection, and (from the DM's side) story structure, building alternate worlds, making the heroes heroic, "glossing over the boring parts," sidequest and main-quest structures, and you've got something that isn't about getting a huge bonus (or at least, a huge bonus is kind of pointless when a pretty big bonus gets the job done just as easily), and is more about the characters and the world, and not so much about the fights and the stuff.

Are there parts of the FF series that you don't think will work in to your system? Or have there been elements you've put on the back burner, to work on later?

The biggest struggle is one between versimilitude and ease of play. Like, I referenced the abstract combat system above. This works great in a videogame, and makes table-top combats flow quickly and easily, but realistic, it ain't. Tactics are minimal. "Odd battlefields" are known in metagame to be special. And what this gains in ease, it surrenders by taking the players out of the world and into the knowledge that they're playing a game.

That's why abstract combat is optional, rather than core. It's an example of something that, to make it more like Final Fantasy, you would have to give up something that made it a table-top RPG (namely, tactical, battlefield fighting).

Minigames have also been a bit odd. Button-mashing, timing games, and tetra master don't translate to tabletop too well. It's possible, but to accomplish it, you'd have to bring in other things. Want to stop in the middle of your game session and play a hand of poker? Or go outside and run a race? While this certainly captures a "final fantasy feel," it kind of compromises the "table-top RPG" feel.

I'm sure there are others, but those two stand out at me. :)

What are you currently working on? Will you feel comfortable giving us your current alpha material for review or discussion? Can we help, or should it be more of a solo project?

I'm a notorious control freak about this project. Because it's really easy to get bogged down in discussions of how it should be done, and then nothing ends up actually getting done. :) I'd rather make a choice and go back and correct it later than talk about what choice I should make in comitee for a week before going ahead with it. :p

Currently I'm working out how I'm representing the bonuses that jobs gain instead of treasure, and how I want the gil/level chart to work. In D&D, characters gain about 30% more wealth at each level, which leaves the low levels too poor to afford any bells and whistles, but leaves the higher levels rediculously well-enhanced. I can't get fire damage at 4th level, but by 40th I'll be lucky if I can find enough powers to give 'em! The problem is that it increases exponentially in D&D, while in FF, it's a more linear progression of power to power. Paired with that is the desire to keep it balanced with the core system -- making sure they ARE weak at 1st level, and strong at 40th. And then there's the fact that the bonuses just look *ugly* right now. There's not a smooth progression of powers and abilities -- you get random bonuses to Strength and Resistance and Defense and Agility, and it's not spaced out well or increasing at a predictable rate.

And to balance it out, I've had to re-examine treasure tables, think about how I'm going to balance the core classes, manipulate magic item types, and think about how treasure will work in FFZ. And then I separated Berserker and Beastmaster, and I unified the saves, and I did away with iterative attacks and figured out a multiple actions/round system. :confused:

I would especially like to see the FFZ magic system if it can handle the stylings of Red Mage, White Mage, Caller, etc., as the D&D magic system is my least favorite part of that game. I'd even like to help, though it seems KM is far more versed on the subject then I am. Need some anime style fan art?

To drop some hints, the magic system is point-based, and every character can make use of MP, from knights to magicians, to accomplish different things. There is only one "saving throw," and it's resolved more like an attack roll/AC set.
 

Mark Causey

Explorer
I think that if you can abstract the combat, a vital part of the game, that you could abstract wealth, too. FF was never about having enough Gil. Didn't have enough? Don't progress the story until you do. Thus, I'd make a point of checking out the Wealth system from d20 Modern.

Will races be predefined, or will you have something to create them as needed?

Ever since the warlock came out, showing how spell-like abilities work and can be balanced, I've always thought it a possible method of Blue magic. Have you been utilizing the new rules that WotC has been releasing, and have you incorporated any OGL material in your game?
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I think that if you can abstract the combat, a vital part of the game, that you could abstract wealth, too. FF was never about having enough Gil. Didn't have enough? Don't progress the story until you do. Thus, I'd make a point of checking out the Wealth system from d20 Modern.

It sure is possible. However, I found in the playtests that I did that people really love the feel of massive piles of gil, and the system of adding and subtracting numbers made it feel something like a "high score," which helps encourage the video-game style. Finding a chest with 100,000 gil in it feels different then finding a chest with a +2 wealth bonus in it, after all.

I'm generally using the 1 gil = 1 gp standard, and everything that costs less is simply abstracted (infinite backpacks, no need for "pocket control" like there is in D&D, no encumbrance).

The biggest difference is that whole "assumed wealth per level" chart. Because the things that most PC's spend wealth on (save bonuses, skill bonuses, ability bonuses, armor bonuses, weapon bonuses) are rolled into the job system in FFZ, this presents a few new issues. Namely, what do FFZ characters spend gil on? And how do these things make you more powerful, without being the things that give you simple bonuses?

In the games, wealth is spent on consumable items (potions, antidotes, phoenix downs), knowledge (teaching you abilities and magic), upgraded equipment (better armor and weapons in each town!), and accessories (which are basically bonuses that you can mix and match).

In FFZ, the last two are (generally speaking) part of your job. Your defense increases, your damage increases, your attack bonus increases, and your resistance increases as you gain levels. In standard d20, knowledge is part of normal advancement, too (while nothing else is, really) -- you don't need to spend gold to go from Cure Light Wounds to Cure Moderate Wounds.

Effectively, it's reconciling two different measures of character power. In D&D, if you spend 100,000 GP, you may get a helmet that lets you read minds. In FFZ, if you spend 100,000 gil, you might learn how to Auto-Regen. In D&D, you get class powers and spend gold for magic on top of that. In FFZ, you spend gold to get class powers (which reflects the games, in which you must visit magic shops, and buy weapons and armor that teach powers). In D&D, treasure may be a legendary artifact. In FFZ, treasure comes in the form of a legendary character who joins your party.

How much is a character like Orlandou "worth" in D&D terms? What about the Mimic job? Or the HP-Stroll ability? A hidden summon? Can you translate FF AP into D&D GP?

Most of my work right now is figuring that out. I think I'm leaning towards a "DM fiat" kind of wealth system, where the PC's have options of getting these powers, these characters, these "ultimate weapons," and their cost in gil or otherwise is largely put in the DM's hand. The DM's guide gives these powers, and advice on what level to do it at, and it's up to the DMs to make sure their PC's can afford it (or not), since treasure is ultimately entirely in the DM's hand.

Will races be predefined, or will you have something to create them as needed?

There will be PLENTY of predefined races, however, the things that go hand-in-hand with races are extremely easy to customize.

In FFZ, one of your souces for Limit Breaks is your race. Races also give you ability and skill modifiers. There's some racial-specific treasure/powers. And that's about it. There's no size modifiers (at least, not in any core race). There's no "quadruped vs. biped" consideration. There's no creature type consideration (all races are considered to be "humanoid," even if they're half-esper or genetic mutant or robotic cat riding a giant moogle). There are optional rules for limiting classes by race, but the racial-specific treasure/powers really take care of most of that (so that a hume ninja and a moogle ninja and a robot ninja all feel like different kinds of ninja, despite having very similar skills).

The inspiration for this was definately the abstract FF system of combat, where the major difference between a yeti and a whatever-the-heck-Gogo-is and a moogle could be expressed in the jobs they had and a handful of ability scores. Where an Ancient played almost exactly like a robot cat on a giant stuffed moogle.

So, as the preview shows, I go into nearly every FF race ever as examples. However, that's more to show off the diversity of the limit system and the remarkable similarity between the races. There's no "racial design system," but with only four or five things to decide on when you bring in the race, there doesn't really need to be. There's just a whole bunch of examples. :)

Ever since the warlock came out, showing how spell-like abilities work and can be balanced, I've always thought it a possible method of Blue magic. Have you been utilizing the new rules that WotC has been releasing, and have you incorporated any OGL material in your game?

I've been "borrowing liberally." :) While the warlock never specifically influenced anything, I do owe a debt to Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, and more than a little to Bruce Cordell and the Expanded Psionics Handbook, especially for showing me variant magical systems. I don't remember specifically where it was from, but one of the early super hero supplements (maybe Four Colors to Fantasy?) gave me the idea for translating GP into raw powers. I've also drawn some ideas from Unearthed Arcana (the WotC release) on how to keep the various goings-on balanced with core D&D.

There's definately more third-party-thought than WotC-thought in FFZ. While not intentional, that just reflects that third parties like re-inventing the wheel, and ultimately, FFZ is a re-invention of the wheel itself. :)

Surprisingly enough, Elements of Magic (which went so far as to refer to its mages with colors) specifically did not help me in this project at all. :p Mostly that's because their magic system is based on flexibility and verstility, whereas FF magic pretty much only does one thing, typically only related to combat.

As far as blue magic, specifically...well, in FFZ, the monsters obey the EXACT same rules as the PC's. Which means that a monster's "racial job" works just like a PC's job. What this means for blue magic is that they're basically learning another job's abilities (and they work very similar to a mimic in this fashion), specifically, they're learning the monster job's abilities. Because most job abilities in FFZ cost MP, translating them into blue magic is surprisingly simple. It merely becomes a matter of developing a "goblin job," complete with goblin punch.

In FFZ, there is no big difference between spells and spell-like abilities (specifically, all spells are pretty much spell-like abilities -- components are for suckas). Class abilities have descriptors and schools. But the magic system has been simplified, too, to less reflect "little old men who sit in towers and never leave and learn ancient secrets" and to more reflect "little old men who sit in towers and learn ancient secrets that they then use to blow stuff up" as it is shown in the games.

Simplification has been huge in FFZ. Part of the feel I'm trying to achieve is to make the gameplay as easy as pushing buttons and getting results, freeing the players to think of story and character more than is usually even possible in normal D&D. If you have a four hour session, and the minis combat takes an hour, that's an hour not spent really developing story that much...and if your character could not be present for the three other hours because he died in the first, it steers the focus toward combat. Combat is an essential part of FFZ, but it is, at it's most abstract, a plot device. More commonly in FFZ, it will be a turning point, a bridge, an event of note...it is entirely possible to never have any campaign-reseting TPK's in FFZ. In fact, you'd have to try pretty hard (and reject optional rules like the Save Point) to make one. The game is in the shared crafting of the story and in the random chance of accomplishing goals. FFZ is designed to be a game where even failure adds to the fun, rather than bringing it to a screeching halt.

I switched into a bit of gushing, there, but I hope I answered the Q's. :)

Any others?
 

The LMS

First Post
have you been play testing this as you go. If so have you been doing it with actual players, or just testing things by yourself. Or, quite possibly..have you just been eyeballing everything till it looks right and expect to make some balance changes later?
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I test with my players where possible, but there's always instances where that's not possible, and so I self-playtest and I eyeball. That's part of why I'm encouraging everyone to send feedback. ;) There are things that I might not notice, or things that I might not expect, and that's why these documents are subject to change and revision, based on your feedback. It's a little less painful to revise an online document than it is to revise 3.5 (and it definately costs less :p), and once the entire initial system gets out there, it can be tweaked and changed as needed to make it the best it can be.

Most of this stuff has been playtested with my own players, but that's by no means true of all of it, so I encourage criticism and opions, because it's only under pressure that things get better.
 


Cynlas

First Post
Ditto That...

I'd like to second AA's question: Are you open to others being your playtesters?

My playing group is small, but diverse in its interests and individual playing styles. As my wife and I are both big FF fans, we both are looking forward to your game.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Are you open to playtesting requests?

MMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe. :)

My work on FFZ is kind of all over the place, and I fear that my style of design would, at the moment, be more aggrivating to playtesters than constructive.

That said, it is something I'm interested in pursuing in the near future, and something I'm going to keep my mind on while I'm plugging away. The main issue right now is that the rules at this stage are not complete enough to run an entire adventure (though they're dang close!). I'm working ahead of the releases, and all told I'm about 25% into the design of the DM's side of things (the final steps of an adventure). And I don't have everything completed leading up to that, either. Mostly, it's the process of turning the rules into crunch.

Fer'instance, you know the 50-level jobs? Well, just 15 minutes ago, I finished designing the first one, the Beastmaster (who is pretty much just a re-named and re-focused berserker). Using the rules I have, I could make a beastmaster character. However, giving him stuff to do -- a world to interact with -- is still in protean stages, without much written down in any kind of organized fashion.

I'm focused on compiling THAT. :) Once I have a tank, a healer, a blaster, a sneaker, a monster, and a treasure, I'll jump right into playtest mode, I think. That's still a few weeks away, at this point, though. Not long...but long enough that if I handed you some disorganized notes and a 50-level job table, it wouldn't be of much use. :eek:

The hard stuff is done, which is why I'm doing the releases at this point. But now that I've built bones, I've gotta arranage them into some sort of skeleton. My own players have been subject to me throwing bones at them (aahh, back when I had 20-level classes and used the Black Mage with PHB spells and no MP system.....:)).

Anyway, there's a good chance that I'll be releasing the Character Concepts and Races documents by the end of this month. Somewhere I may fit in an explanation of the Limit system. I guess we'll find out. :p

Anyway, back to work for me. And let's go with this: if you're interested on being in playtesting groups by the end of the year, send me your name, the names of your players, and some of the stuff you'd and they'd like to most see out of FFZ. The benefits of playtesting are that you'll see your favorite stuff ASAP. :cool: I'll compile a list, and I'll check again when the bones make a skeleton. :)

Thanks for the offers, though. Seriously. I'm flattered and excited. BACK TO WORK!
 

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