Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Any chance of someone providing a link here for me (and any others who also may have missed out)?

Check the main page; there's a design diary article up. There might be another...some day...if it's ever approved. :D

How exactly will the base stats be used (Atk, def, resistance, and magic (cant remember the exact terms, its late)), I assume that the Atk will be much as Bab, but will the def score apply as damage reduction or AC? (in the games it reduced the damge you took), and will you have the spells like in the games (mana used to pay for the abilities you know from you class) or a little more d20ish?

Attack Score = BAB for most purposes. You add it to a d20 roll, and if you exceed the enemy's AC, you damage them.

Resistance = Saves for most purposes. The FF games have a unified saving throw against magical effects, so there is only one type of Resistance, which magical classes are better at than physical classes. You add your Wisdom bonus (so it works like a Will save) to rolls with it to beat your enemy's DC to lessen or entirely resist magical attacks. It also often works as sort of a magical DR.

Magic = "caster level" for most purposes. It's used to determine the power of spells you cast, as well as what level of spells you can cast. Magic helps solve the "multiclassing spellcasters" problem of d20, and gives knights and samurai a way to learn the occasional magic spell through a feat or treasure ability.

Defense = Two numbers: one adds to AC, one adds to DR. The DR you get from Defense applies against all physical attacks; the AC is an armor bonus that stacks with worn armor (which now just comes in four categories). Armor grants additional AC and DR. In general, this means FFZ characters and creatures will hit more often (reflecting the fact that you rarely miss in the games), but do less damage (reflecting the Armor-lessens-damage mechanic in the games).

All of these stats increase by level. I wanted to use one progression chart, but if I was going to stay balanced with the core, I couldn't use the same progression for Resistance that I could with Attack (for instance). But all have *some* progression, and some variation...there's now a Medium-level Resistance bonus, for instance (instead of just "good" and "bad" saves).

Right now in my writing, HP and MP are also set numbers, but I'm not sure if I want it that way in the end...
 

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Xaos_Bob

First Post
Ten cents' worth

Something to look at when the wealth-by-level tables try to stare you down may be Malhavoc Press' Iron Heroes. That's all about improving the character, though it is admittedly weighed in heavy favor of warrior types. Could be some good inspiration there, though.

And again, kudos to your talent and chutzpa. It's great to know FFZ is in such able hands.

(now I need to read the rest of the thread)
 

jeffh

Adventurer
Hmm. Personally I've always thought a bell-curved roll mechanic or possibily a die pool would better reflect FF mechanics than a system like d20. Most abilities in the FF games I've played are VERY reliable, including regular attacks. You don't really get that feel with 1d20 + mods. (Have you seen the old, old document on how FF4's combat mechanics work? It's basically an opposed-roll die pool system using percentile dice. It would be a nightmare to try to do exactly in tabletop conditions, but a simplification of that would seem like the way to go to me.)

That's one thing I didn't like about the Returner RPG, too. Mind you, I can see how a percentile mechanic would appeal to someone coming in from, say, FF Tactics, which I'm only starting to play now believe it or not.

Having said that, what I've seen seems well put together for one guy working without so much as an editor, and I look forward to seeing more of it.

One thing I'm curious about - in most of the FFs I've played, random encounters take up a buttload of your time and are the main way you advance. There are tons of little wear-you-down fights, even more than in D&D. FFT is the main exception - that one fits most of your description, and most of the fights are RUGGED too - but even that has random encounters.

So I'm curious why you are taking, as far as I can see, exactly the opposite tack with FFZ. Have more recent FFs abandoned that model? Or is there some other reason behind that decision? I'm not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just curious as to the reasoning. (It may be relevant here that I play most of my FF through emulation so I'm a generation behind, technologically speaking.)
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Hmm. Personally I've always thought a bell-curved roll mechanic or possibily a die pool would better reflect FF mechanics than a system like d20. Most abilities in the FF games I've played are VERY reliable, including regular attacks. You don't really get that feel with 1d20 + mods. (Have you seen the old, old document on how FF4's combat mechanics work? It's basically an opposed-roll die pool system using percentile dice. It would be a nightmare to try to do exactly in tabletop conditions, but a simplification of that would seem like the way to go to me.)

That's one thing I didn't like about the Returner RPG, too. Mind you, I can see how a percentile mechanic would appeal to someone coming in from, say, FF Tactics, which I'm only starting to play now believe it or not.

Indeed, an opposed bell curve mechanic would emulate the mechanics of the FF games pretty well. However, I saw that it was not really nessecary...an "FF Feel" comes from the story, the iconic creatures, and the jobs and abilities, and only in part from the mechanics.

The mechanics just didn't seem to be the core of the game, to me. They weren't as integral to the delight and joy derived from the game the first play through, because they were transparent. However, the d20 mechanic is integral to the feel of RPG's for me (and for most people who play a lot of D&D, I guess...:)). And it also allows for a more "heroic" feel, with extreme results being more common. Because thousands of points of damage was kind of out of the realm of possibility, there needed to be something that showed this complete mastery -- critical success.

So the d20 keeps the mechanics familiar, simple, and easy to use for anyone who has played D&D before. This favors simplicity and heroics, which are both things FFZ would like to encourage (going up against villains and impossible odds? Yup!).

That said, it isn't too hard to turn a d20 into a 3d6 for a bell curve roll. UA gives some solid advice, and makes sure to note that skill ranks, ability scores, and bonuses have a much more powerful effect on a bell curve roll than on a d20 roll. I'll probably crib from UA notes when talking about how to modify FFZ for personal tastes.

So I'm curious why you are taking, as far as I can see, exactly the opposite tack with FFZ. Have more recent FFs abandoned that model? Or is there some other reason behind that decision? I'm not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just curious as to the reasoning. (It may be relevant here that I play most of my FF through emulation so I'm a generation behind, technologically speaking.)

The reason for this is one of those things I decided to do in translating a videogame to a table top. In an FF game, each combat only takes a few minutes or a few seconds. Even boss battles don't last very long, and FFT (and FFT-A) are the exceptions to this point, but they don't last more than a few minutes themselves.

Compare this to tabletop, where a combat can take fifteen minutes to an hour...and you've got a problem. If random encounters are as common as they are in most FF games, you're spending much more time at the table, and thus getting nowhere fast. Several months of real time can zoom by with nothing more than random encounters. While good in a game for building levels, this is a hassle at the table, where the meat of the game is in significant (boss-like) combat.

This problem can be mitigated by things like abstracted combat, but you're still having everyone's turn last a minute or more. It gets dull not getting anyplace (for most groups, anyway...I'm sure some have NO problem just slugging it out. :)). So FFZ cuts out the boring parts. There are "random encounters" in the way that the DM rolls on a table for a monster, but this is before the session starts, usually, and the DM thinks about how the monster will encounter the PC's, and why such a monster would exist, and what kind of seeds for story and character development the monster has. It's also not entirely common...directly related to "travel distance," actually in that the farther you go, the more encounters of this type you will have, and the more treasure abilities you have a chance to get...

Anyway, the basic crux is that tabletop combat can be long and complex, and FFZ definately strives to be simpler and faster paced than normal D&D. So while there are random encounters, these are often well-planned in advance. FFZ pays attention to the real-world schedule that many gaming groups are on, and asks that the DM pay attention to it, too, in order to make the game the most effective. FFZ wants you to know approximately how many sessions you want your adventure to take, what kind of players you have, where you will time events, if holidays will interefere, where and when you play...mostly from the DM's side, but from the player's as well. And only having a few combats in each game session (3-5, normally, slightly less if there is a boss battle) helps that pacing go smoothly.
 

Mark Causey

Explorer
FFZ Chapter 3 said:
Generally speaking, character concepts exist to anchor your choices in character generation to a personality for your character. Character concepts are broad archetypes, even clichés, which represent sweeping generalizations about certain types of characters often found in the Final Fantasy games. They are guidelines, advice, and prepackaged motive for a character.

Wonderful. The only thing I see missing (which may be later on in the chapter) is making sure that characters aren't created in a vacuum. Characters should be made with the help and consent of the DM AND gaming group. But really, thanks for addressing the character concept with rules other than class and race.

FFZ Chapter 3 said:
They are, rather purposefully, simplistic. This serves several purposes, the most obvious of which is to allow each player to develop a unique character out of the concept’s rough design. Two characters who share the Knight in Shining Armor concept may be very different depending upon the motives, adventures, experiences, and even setting they exist in. Part of the fun of FFZ is in uncovering and unearthing deep, meaningful experiences for these fictitious beings in these fantastic settings that nonetheless may echo some of the feeling and meaning the players can have. --snip-- A simple over-eager Child Savant in the opening scenes should become a complex individual by the time they’re facing down the major villain.

Is there some way of extending the character concept down the levels to add more mechanics that reinforce character concept or character evolution? Maybe you could get something small every level or every few levels (like a UA Bloodline) that reinforced the character concept, or had a feat tree that only your concept could advance on easily (by ignoring the prereqs)? Maybe you could, if you used them, allow the action dice to be d8s, d10s, or even d12s, if the scene was important to your character or her concept? Or, you could give extra action dice for scenes that applied? If you wanted to extend the idea that the Character Concept helped give frame to and guidance for your character, maybe you could give examples of feats and class choices in a more rigid form that could be taken to get some bonuses (like the UA Monk schools). Also, the guilds and traditions provide both GP, level, and roleplaying requirements for their benefits.

Just some thoughts.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Characters should be made with the help and consent of the DM AND gaming group. But really, thanks for addressing the character concept with rules other than class and race.

True enough, they should. However, that's more of a group style and DM descision more than anything, which is more covered from the DM's side than the informative player's side that Ch3 approaches the mechanic from. To play any character, one must always consider the group's needs, after all. :) It isn't expressly mentioned here, thuogh it will be mentioned on the DM's side.

Is there some way of extending the character concept down the levels to add more mechanics that reinforce character concept or character evolution? Maybe you could get something small every level or every few levels (like a UA Bloodline) that reinforced the character concept, or had a feat tree that only your concept could advance on easily (by ignoring the prereqs)? Maybe you could, if you used them, allow the action dice to be d8s, d10s, or even d12s, if the scene was important to your character or her concept? Or, you could give extra action dice for scenes that applied? If you wanted to extend the idea that the Character Concept helped give frame to and guidance for your character, maybe you could give examples of feats and class choices in a more rigid form that could be taken to get some bonuses (like the UA Monk schools). Also, the guilds and traditions provide both GP, level, and roleplaying requirements for their benefits.

All these thoughts are quite golden, but I've decided to go the simple approach: the best way you can build on a character concept is by getting feats that use your bonus feat as a prerequisite, or that are otherwise related to your character concept. A coward, for instance, would take feats like Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Skill Focus (sneak), and Mobility (but probably not Spring Attack...unless he had become bolder in the time it took for him to get it), and might take a feat like Desperate Attack which requires Fast Escape, and grants bonuses when the withdrawl action cannot be used. They can also choose powers and seek treasure that emphasises these traits -- the coward may take the Theif job (or as a sub-job) which allows him to better remain unseen, and may get the HP Stroll treasure ability that allows him to regain life while scampering away from foes.

Someone who liked the coward but found that cowardice challenged and accepted a new bravery may not focus as much on those. They may be quick to escape, maybe with a few feats dedicated to it, but they have learned to stand their ground, too...perhaps even serving as bait, using his powers of escape to lure monsters back to a well-fortified position.

So, in the end, it's up to the player how much they want to invest in the concept. It isn't designed to dominate a character's advancement in the way that a level or an organization might. Just to guide it (and you can bet that NPC's that have these concepts will make good use of them to influence their options). So there aren't a lot of ways to make specific use of it in later levels. This is intentional -- ideally, your concept becomes less key to understanding your character as you advance. Percentage wise, a character has 100% of their feat options dedicated to their concept at level 1. At level 30, they may have six feats -- they could still have 100% of them dedicated to their concept, or maybe they have only that one, a measly 17% of their adventuring careers revolving around it, the rest going to tribes, jobs, party role, new events, and general awesomeness.
 




I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
It's not dead, but I've started some classes that are eating up my time. Rest assured, I'm still hard at work on the Tribes chapter, and this in general. :)


The Returner's RPG I actually worked on for a while, and I can't say anything too bad against it. FFZ is merely philosophically divergent at a really basic level -- it embraces the d20 system, it concentrates less on direct class emulation, and more on overall feel and style, and it builds on what already exists rather than creating a new system from the ground up. The Returners like to get things "how they worked in the games," where I'm much more concerned with "how it felt to do this in the game," and "how that feeling can be achieved with dice."

And the best help is just giving me your gamer expertise at this point. Sometime eventually I'll have the structure set up enough for playtesting; until then, just tell me what you think! Heck, write a review if you feel inspired! ;)

Yeah, the project ain't dead yet. Just at a mild lull while I work on the Tribes.
 

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