Why is the Gish so popular with players?

dbm

Savage!
Supporter
To put something extra in the mix - my favourite Gish is actually the Bard as a core. You are a full caster and have some flexible spells available to you though relatively few direct attacks; there are some sound-based spells in the core list but you can, of course, get more using Magical Secrets.

For more fighting my personal preference is the College of Swords. The ability to use Bardic Inspiration dice to add to your damage output, defences, or exert some battle field control are excellent, especially once your dice refresh on a short rest. They also get a fighting style and a second attack at sixth level.

The ‘Blade’ kit for 2e Bards was my favourite thing in that edition and this strongly echoes that vibe.

You also have good Charisma for the social pillar of play, and good skills overall with Expertise. Play a Dex-based fighting style and you can typically boost up melee attack and defence while keeping your spell-casting stat good too.

For me personally the best thing about the bard as a base for a Gish is that it doesn’t require multi-classing and so you can be closer to the vision of the character you want to play from first level onwards. There are undoubtedly more powerful builds but I find this the most satisfying from level 1 upwards.

I keep meaning to try a pure Warlock Gish. Again, I am sure there are more powerful options but as long as the character doesn’t suck I don’t feel the need to min-max. Our group all tend to feel similarly on this so it all works out across the PCs; I can see there could be problems if some characters are markedly underperforming compared to the majority.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Probably the same reason Clerics aren't generally viewed as gish, despite being the OG gish. I think there needs to be an identity, or at least a feel, of melding two disparate (and opposed) identities together, while still being both.

I think that's why 3.X was always the best edition for characters that felt like gish; the best "feeling" gish is a fighter/wizard/gish PrC.
Well cleric magic isnt wizard magic.

I think a lot of people who want gishes want fire blasts and turn invisible not heals and turn undead.

Then you get those who want hurricane slash, vampiric stab, and flash step.

I think Gishes won't happen in TTRPGs until there is a major generational shift in the designer side
 

Aldarc

Legend
Probably the same reason Clerics aren't generally viewed as gish, despite being the OG gish. I think there needs to be an identity, or at least a feel, of melding two disparate (and opposed) identities together, while still being both.

I think that's why 3.X was always the best edition for characters that felt like gish; the best "feeling" gish is a fighter/wizard/gish PrC.
For me, some of the best gishes in the D&D sphere were the Mageblade, from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved in the 3e era, and the 4e Swordmage.
 

Well cleric magic isnt wizard magic.

I think a lot of people who want gishes want fire blasts and turn invisible not heals and turn undead.

Then you get those who want hurricane slash, vampiric stab, and flash step.
You also have people like me, who want to fight with sword and bow, and then finish the adventure contributing vital spells like Knock, Spider Climb, See Invisibility, and Dimension Door. And those utility-type spells, barring a few like Silence, Stone Shape, and Air Walk, have been off the divine list from the beginning*. There are simply a large slice to things-you-might-want-to-do that are arcane, and divine is only very slowly picking up a few per edition.
*Druid/Ranger divine has a few additions no one else has, but still doesn't have an answer to several simple exploration challenges (admittedly some because wildshape exists and solves the same problem).
I think Gishes won't happen in TTRPGs until there is a major generational shift in the designer side
I doubt it has to be actual people changing out, so much as reassessing roles and ways of thinking. I think the popularity of the bladelock, and of the 5e paladins and bards* probably has helped promote the idea that this isn't a niche desire.
*whether they qualify as gishes or not
 

rmcoen

Adventurer
First, from the OP: "martial fighting looks fun, spellcasting looks fun, and I have a fear of missing out."
-- Hard to say this isn't part of it. I want to play with all parts of the system.

Second, I'd be remiss in not saying one word here: "JEDI". sword-wielding space wizards. Grew up with 'em.

Third, it's a fantasy game. I like martial character concepts, but I want some access to magic to connect and enhance the feeling of fantasy - otherwise, we can all just play some 3 Musketeers realistic Renaissance simulator. (They exist, people enjoy them, it's not a slam - but I want a little magic in my imagination.) A sword-wielding knight against a dragon is a tasty snack, but if that knight can throw up a blast of water, or a shield against dragonbreath, or just shimmer-step sideways impossibly fast...

Fourth - and several others mentioned it right away - system versatility and play time. I don't want or need to be the star, but I do want to contribute in all areas of play, so I can participate in all areas of play. I don't need Phenomenal Cosmic Power (tm) and out-dueling Conan. I'd rather be Odysseus than Achilles, and have a few magical tricks on the side to even the odds and break the "rules".

Fifth - I, as a player and a DM, am all about "power with consequences" and giving up this to get that. And I'm well aware that for balance reasons (and my min-max skill and proclivity), I might need to give up two or three of this to get that. (Anyone ever play Monopoly as a kid? It's totally worth trading three properties to get the a single one that completes your color-group, right?) I'm one of those guys that knows that "breathes air" is a 5pt "free" disadvantage in Champions - and actually results in you surviving longer without air than a "normal person"! Having been on both sides of the screen, I don't expect my Gish concept to adventure in Full Plate and fly and throw fireballs and counterspell Vecna. I'm not playing Sarevok, and I don't want to. But I also know that giving up features I didn't plan to use anyway isn't actually giving up anything; I'm totally willing to sacrifice to attain versatility of power. In 5e terms - I'm fine with being +5 at swords and spells when the regular fighter is +7 at swords and the regular mage is +7 at spells.

Sixth - the Paladin concept (swords and prayers) exists in many many many games these days. Change healing to fireball, though, and some folks bring out the pitchforks... I'll play the paladin if gish isn't available. My last character in 5e, in fact, was actually just a Fighter (Battlemaster) with the "Magic Initiate: Cleric" feat - a disappointed failed paladin wannabe!


So hopefully, OP, this wall of text provides some explanation of why players might be attracted to Gish ideas without being toxic players or divas. (Or maybe you're breaking up my soapbox to provide more fuel to the fire to roast me on?)
 



James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
This deserves its' own thread. ;) Are they sword-wielding space wizards or psychic warrior monks (PF1 Kineticist/Monk with the Kinetic Blade Infusion)? 😋
Given that the average Jedi only knows a handful of powers, and that you (maybe, canon is weird these days) have to be born with a high degree of force sensitivity (midi-chlorians) to be considered a Jedi, it's obvious that most Jedi are actually Sorcerers who get Extra Attack from their subclass (why is that not a thing, I wonder?).

All the deflection and parrying is just Shield or Silvery Barbs. ^-^
 



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