Why is the Gish so popular with players?

[Parmandur]

How are we defining the Gish? If it's a character who blends martial, typically sword-based attacks with magic, then in official D&D5e alone, there are:
Paladins, rangers, artificers, hex blades, blade singers, college of valour, college of swords, rune knights, eldritch knights, echo knights, arcane tricksters, and more. Plus multi-classed characters.

So I would argue that probably half of all characters are some definition of "Gish."

Fair point, but usually I've seen people who like the Gish tell me thst Paladins and Warlocks don't count for some reason.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Fair point, but usually I've seen people who like the Gish tell me thst Paladins and Warlocks don't count for some reason.

Paladins and Warlocks don't count for flavour. The latter is the person that made unwise bargains for power and the former is a holy warrior.
Many gish player want a jedi or a magical batman.

 

[Parmandur]

Paladins and Warlocks don't count for flavour. The latter is the person that made unwise bargains for power and the former is a holy warrior.
Many gish player want a jedi or a magical batman.

Still don't see the conflict. The Pacts are flavor, as is any "Holy" flavoring to the Paladin (Jedi are also "Holy Warriors"?). There is no mechanical divide between Arcane and Divine magic, either, so a Paladin is literally just a half-mahic half-martial.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Still don't see the conflict. The Pacts are flavor, as is any "Holy" flavoring to the Paladin (Jedi are also "Holy Warriors"?). There is no mechanical divide between Arcane and Divine magic, either, so a Paladin is literally just a half-mahic half-martial.

I think you are overstating the willingness of people to tinker with the game at that mechanical level.
The paladin is a good starting place but the lack of a martial- arcane curated spell list is the real holdup.

the 2024 Paladin is better because of smite as a spell. An arcane smite spell would go a long way to supporting an arcane gish.
I played an EK to about level 10 and the big problems, in my opinion are; the lack of slots, the superiority of using shield over any other spell. The fiddlyness of picking out evocation and abjuration spells (give them a curated list, damn it).

I think that an arcane gish need some new and specific spells, weapon based, to support the class. The blade cantrips are a good start but more is needed.

As for the Warlock, I hate the 2014 Warlock as a class. Not the flavour so much as the class chassis. The over dependence of Eldritch Blast and so on. I would not like a gish based on that class.

 

[TwoSix]

Still don't see the conflict. The Pacts are flavor, as is any "Holy" flavoring to the Paladin (Jedi are also "Holy Warriors"?). There is no mechanical divide between Arcane and Divine magic, either, so a Paladin is literally just a half-mahic half-martial.

Probably the same reason Clerics aren't generally viewed as gish, despite being the OG gish. I think there needs to be an identity, or at least a feel, of melding two disparate (and opposed) identities together, while still being both.

I think that's why 3.X was always the best edition for characters that felt like gish; the best "feeling" gish is a fighter/wizard/gish PrC.

 

[Parmandur]

I think you are overstating the willingness of people to tinker with the game at that mechanical level.

But that's the thing, I don't see that any mechanical work needs to be done? The Paladin is already a magic-weapon-user hybrid? Arcane and Divine art agonies in the game anymore, magic is magic.

I would not like a gish based on that class.

But what I am saying is, it already is one? The Warlock can walk into a situation with armor and a magical super weapon, and have a number of Leveled Spells that are close combat appropriate upgraded to Cantrips.

 

[Parmandur]

Probably the same reason Clerics aren't generally viewed as gish, despite being the OG gish. I think there needs to be an identity, or at least a feel, of melding two disparate (and opposed) identities together, while still being both.

I think that's why 3.X was always the best edition for characters that felt like gish; the best "feeling" gish is a fighter/wizard/gish PrC.

So how about the Artificer?

 

[Jd Smith1]

I never use systems that allow kitchen-sink PCs.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

But that's the thing, I don't see that any mechanical work needs to be done? The Paladin is already a magic-weapon-user hybrid? Arcane and Divine art agonies in the game anymore, magic is magic.

But what I am saying is, it already is one? The Warlock can walk into a situation with armor and a magical super weapon, and have a number of Leveled Spells that are close combat appropriate upgraded to Cantrips.

magic is not magic, the paladin comes with a curated list, many of their best spells are specific to the paladin.

As for the Warlock, I have little to say, I have seen warlock in play but never as weapon focused combatant. Always as a ranged magical skirmisher. I personally do not like the 2014 version.
I will offer the Rune Knight as a good gish.

As for the Artificer, never seen one in play, in theory though?

This brings up the Bladesinger, This is a problem, the Bladesinger is too effective. As much wizard sweetness as one wants with as little or as much martial as one wants to add.
A Bladesinger with pally style smites would be so OP it would not be funny. I personally think that the Bladesinger is the reason that the gish does not get it toys.

 

[TwoSix]

So how about the Artificer?

Artificer can get really close, for sure. Battle smith artificer is like at 90% on the gish-o-meter. (And some alternate artificers, like Kibblestasty, get to like 98%).

It's hard to exactly describe, but the perfect gish needs just a hint of transgression. There should be a sense of "I'm supposed to put this combat buff on the fighter, but what if I put it on myself?" Or "I'm supposed to cast fireball from back here, but what if I run up and cast fireball right next to the bad guys?"

The problem with a custom designed gish class will always be that it's pretty hard to transgress against its own design.