D&D (2024) What is your oppinion of 5.24 so far?

[FitzTheRuke]

assuming that is directed at me, but I fully agree with this, it never was about 'what I would have preferred did not win, so their polls must not be working'

No, I agree with you that their polls were done poorly precisely because half the time I had no idea what I was telling them. If I didn't know, how the heck are they supposed to understand what I mean by my feedback?

Not liking their methodology has nothing to do with liking or not liking their results.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

We're finding that combat is slower because there are more options. Grappling, toppling, and so on all add another choice, saving throw, etc., not to mention new class or sub-class options (e.g. the monk has a lot more choices to make now, and we have a monk). Each option by itself is small, but it definitely feels a bit more complicated and slows play maybe 10% at our table.

I haven't found that 10% - it feels like close to nothing to me - but I can imagine it being about the average. Again, I can imagine it getting worse at high-level, maybe. But I think it could easily be managed with all the usual tricks to get players to take their turns. Also: If a PC is doing attacks that cause saving throws regularly, even a DM like me, with a poor memory, is likely to quickly learn the save DC.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think the table is very simplified. A champion is quite simple. A wild heart barbarian forces you to make a decision at the start of the rage now. So you need to assess the situation early.

My assumption is that the table is just useful for the first 2 levels mostly.
And then you have to consider that there is advice for the first levels which spells to pick.

So:
Rogue level 1: simple. Attack. Sneak attack when attacking an enemy next to an ally. Suggested weapon masteries. Level 2: cool you can disengage for free.

Fighter level 1: simple: attack. Bonus action heal. Always on effects. Chose a weapon with a mastery. Probably suggested ones in the class. Level 2: I attack twoce sometimes.

Barbarian: a bit more tricky: level 1: rage adds bonuses sometimes. To which checks? Level 2: oh, I get advantage, enemies get advantage. Need to remember for the rest of the round! OA! (this is new)

Wizard: Level 1: quite simple for a caster: take the suggested spells. Use them cleverly? Seems simple enough. You need to read a bit more though. Level 2: gain some spells back. Cool.

Sorcerer: level 1: a bit more complex, see rage! Level 2: fiddling with two resources and decision making on the spot. And you need to decide which metamagic is useful.

So I can really get why WotC gives those ratings. It probably is the starting complexity, not the whole class.

 

[Azzy]

I can't wait to see the text that goes with this table. I would certainly like to see the context.

 

[Scott Christian]

I've played with everyone from very experienced (but not optimizer) players to literally brand-new just got into it after playing BG3 players. And ones in-between.

The one thing that I will admit that I haven't seen is an optimizer playing at mid-to-high levels. I guess I can imagine someone who wants to not only optimize their character, but optimize their turn for "maximum effectiveness" with, say, a high-level fighter or monk with a lot of moving parts, who wants to try to knock down someone and then switch weapons and slow them or some other crazy combinations where they want to find out if the first attack succeeds or not before moving on to the next... THAT I guess I can imagine slowing the game down, especially if they're that rare combination of really concerned about choosing one thing IF this happens, and another if THIS happens - as opposed to planning their turn out and doing it... maybe.

I just haven't seen that sort of player in many many years. I'm not sure that I'd put up with it, regardless of "edition". Take your turn. Don't bore other players. Get it done. It doesn't have to be "perfect".

I think this is nice in concept, and definitely your experience. But from my experience, it is the opposite. There are many experienced players that still don't know the game. There are many players that go to do something, then it's explained it's more detrimental than positive, and then they change. There are many, especially at higher levels, that are literally having to store three or four things per round in their head for their character. It all adds up.

 

[Clint_L]

I haven't found that 10% - it feels like close to nothing to me - but I can imagine it being about the average. Again, I can imagine it getting worse at high-level, maybe. But I think it could easily be managed with all the usual tricks to get players to take their turns. Also: If a PC is doing attacks that cause saving throws regularly, even a DM like me, with a poor memory, is likely to quickly learn the save DC.

We’re at level 11. I was being conservative with 10%, but on the other hand, that will speed up as the new stuff becomes intuitive. At the same time, combat being a bit slower because there are more choices is not necessarily a flaw.

There is unquestionably a bit more complexity, and there’s a time cost for that. I’m still a fan of the updated rules.

 

[Stormonu]

I think this is nice in concept, and definitely your experience. But from my experience, it is the opposite. There are many experienced players that still don't know the game. There are many players that go to do something, then it's explained it's more detrimental than positive, and then they change. There are many, especially at higher levels, that are literally having to store three or four things per round in their head for their character. It all adds up.

I play infrequently enough with my latest Hexblade character I had to fill build me flowchart to remind myself the order to do things (and which branch to follow to get there). But by my 3rd round of combat I am consistently putting out about 69 points of damage a round (and up to 106, without critting).

 

[Scott Christian]

I play infrequently enough with my latest Hexblade character I had to fill build me flowchart to remind myself the order to do things (and which branch to follow to get there). But by my 3rd round of combat I am consistently putting out about 69 points of damage a round (and up to 106, without critting).

I mean, just adding up the numbers to 69 or 106 takes time. And for those non-calculator brains, it takes time. Each person I play with has someone sitting near them that can do the math in their head pretty quickly - and it still takes time. Let alone telling someone you do 6d8 but then you get an extra 2d6 plus you need to add your sword bonus and your strength bonus. Oh yeah, you critted, so now take that extra 6d8, but you don't double the 2d6. Now roll it all and add it up.

In my experience, some players can do this in one minute. Others it takes three or four. And that doesn't account for movement, rolling the "to hit," bonus actions, pauses, and the DM deciding if there are reactions, lair effects, etc. At high levels, it can easily add up to five (or even 10) minute turns.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm not saying that people can't take a bit of extra time on their turns - I just find that the difference between 2014 and 2024 is negligible. I suppose that it's not non-existent, but I don't find that, for example, my polearm master player knocking an orc down and "playing shuffleboard" with him takes any longer to adjudicate than your average spell. Maybe it takes longer when comparing new fighter turn to old fighter turn, but it's no different than having a different class in that seat, if that makes sense.

 

[mellored]

my polearm master player knocking an orc down and "playing shuffleboard" with him takes any longer to adjudicate than your average spell.

This.

Martials are a step closer to casters in their ability to do more than just damage. But that also means they are a step closer in how long their turn takes.

Martials are still faster as player have their attack bonus memorized and the DMs has to look it up every time.

*except topple. That's an attack and a save. A fighter using it can definitely take longer turns. If they didn't fix it, i will.

*and Conjure X, which was egregious in the time it took. It was banned as a combat spell at my table. I did allow it for out of combat scouting.