D&D (2024) So Class Complexity...

[Maxperson]

Have you looked at 5e yet wizard? It is not very complex. You have a lot of choice in spells, so a lot of options (spells), but that is not complexity

Yes options are complexity. Look at the Champion Fighter. Most of the abilities are static, so no decision points. Other than action surge and second wind, there are not a lot of choices other than who to swing at. Contrast that with a wizard who has many different decision points in every single adventuring day. He has to know what spells to cast, which spells not to cast, when to cast those spells, when not to cast any spells, and of course he has to balance both combat and non-combat spells in a way to last the entire day.

To play a wizard correctly, it's very complicated to get right. To play a wizard badly, you're right that it's not all that complex.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Ugh, inw

Yes options are complexity. Look at the Champion Fighter. Most of the abilities are static, so no decision points. Other than action surge and second wind, there are not a lot of choices other than who to swing at. Contrast that with a wizard who has many different decision points in every single adventuring day. He has to know what spells to cast, which spells not to cast, when to cast those spells, when not to cast any spells, and of course he has to balance both combat and non-combat spells in a way to last the entire day.

To play a wizard correctly, it's very complicated to get right. To play a wizard badly, you're right that it's not all that complex.

Ugh. I would hate to be accused of playing a wizard correctly. That is so weighted with judgement and entitlement that I would not want to play in that group

 

[Maxperson]

Ugh, inw

Ugh. I would hate to be accused of playing a wizard correctly. That is so waited with judgement and entitlement that I would not want to play in that group

I'm just saying that if you just lob spell after spell in the first fight and run yourself out quickly, with no thought to which spells you are picking, it's not complex to play that wizard.

If you think about which spells that need spell slots to cast in combat, when to cast those spells as opposed to cantrips to conserve slots, which spells to cast out of combat and when not to cast an out of combat spell in favor of finding alternate means so that you can make your slots last all day, it is a very complex class.

Spell options = complexity.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I'm just saying that if you just lob spell after spell in the first fight and run yourself out quickly, with no thought to which spells you are picking, it's not complex to play that wizard.

If you think about which spells that need spell slots to cast in combat, when to cast those spells as opposed to cantrips to conserve slots, which spells to cast out of combat and when not to cast an out of combat spell in favor of finding alternate means so that you can make your slots last all day, it is a very complex class.

Spell options = complexity.

No, you said “correctly” as if there is a correct way to play. That has nothing to do with complexity

 

[Maxperson]

No, you said “correctly” as if there is a correct way to play. That has nothing to do with complexity

Yep. I view running out and wasting all your spells in the first combat to be playing a wizard poorly. Is that what you do?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Yep. I view running out and wasting all your spells in the first combat to be playing a wizard poorly. Is that what you do?

I don’t play wizards, that are to simple for me.

PS - I don’t judge how people play. If someone wants to be nova wizard that is ok with me

 

[Maxperson]

I don’t play wizards, that are to simple for me.

Fair enough!

PS - I don’t judge how people play. If someone wants to be nova wizard that is ok with me

the DMs that I've played with plan fights for all the party members to be present and capable. If the wizard takes himself out of most of them by wasting all of his spells in the first fight, then it makes it harder on the rest of us in later fights. Cantrips only don't cut it in a lot of fights.

 

[Apexwolf319]

Using a spell consists of "I cast magic missile at the darkness". Build-wise, it is "make yourself smart".

A monk combat round consists of "for my bonus action I dash and disengage, spending 1 Ki. I then use martial arts to make an attack with a dagger (dealing 1d6+dex as it is a monk weapon), and as my 2nd attack it is an unarmed attack; which I use to grapple the target if it hits; as a mercy monk, it also deals wisdom plus 1d6 damage, and I use stunning strike on it for another ki. That is 3/5 ki spent. Build-wise, I have bumped my dexterity but kept a reasonable wisdom".

You can make a wizard who does fancy mechanical things, and spend forever picking which spell to cast. But a monk's typical turn requires using about 4 different class and subclass abilities, and they require much more careful attribute selection compared to a wizard to be usable.

If someone sits down and picks "wizard", uses recommended spell selection and build guide, their turn is "do I cantrip or use a spell? If spell, which of this list of spells do I use? I guess the highest level one, make it go boom" and you are contributing reasonably to the party.

The monk has more bits in motion in play, starting really quickly. They might be simpler bits, but there are a lot of them.

You add the math for damage as if Wizards spells have no damage dice. And if we're being hyperbolic let's do it with monks too.
Using a Monk consists of "I move up and attack". Build-wise "make yourself fast".

Boom, done. Which spell to use in certain situations is far more complex than "Do I dash or disengage"

 

[Apexwolf319]

And how is Sorcerer anything above Low. You have no books to fill, no spells to prepare everyday. All spells you just know it's the same as picking any other spell for a class. Spell points are probably the easiest part of this whole game there is no thinking involved or choices even. They are just more spell slots.

 

[Remathilis]

And how is Sorcerer anything above Low. You have no books to fill, no spells to prepare everyday. All spells you just know it's the same as picking any other spell for a class. Spell points are probably the easiest part of this whole game there is no thinking involved or choices even. They are just more spell slots.

Metamagic. Spell point conversion rates. Two resources to track. Spellcasting in general. Sorcerers haven't been that simple since 3.5. the 2014 sorcerer has a bunch of moving parts that interact with each other.

Absolutely not low.