Level Up (A5E) Class redesign

[Neonchameleon]

2. Idea of "capstones" at 20th level that bring something new to the class should be scrapped as 99% of campaigns will not get there.
highest level that a "new" mechanics is introduced to the class should be 10th or 11th.
All other "class features" after those levels should only be improvements of already present features.

Does this mean that we scrap any spell of above fifth level that isn't just an improvement over a lower level spell?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Does this mean that we scrap any spell of above fifth level that isn't just an improvement over a lower level spell?

I'd be ok with, personally. Spells of level 6+ are hardly balanced between themselves. You could cut a bunch of them by adding more possible effect with upcasting instead of moar damage. Like: if fireball is upcast at level X, you can create the effect of firestorm. Call ligthning upcasted to 9th could be Storm of Vengeance. Control Weather upcasted to X could be Tsunami or Whirwind etc. The Silent Image, Major Illusion, Mirage Arcane could be the upcastings of the same spell, divine favour -> Crusader's mantle, entangle -> grasping vine -> plant growth

Same with the ''reversible spells'': cure wound/inflict wound, bane/bless, they could be the same spell, but with 2 possible effects.

 

[TwoSix]

It’d just be boring. A big part of the demand driving the project is more interesting mechanical feature options at every level. Making 11th level and up “just more of the same” as what you got at levels 1-10 is pretty antithetical to that. Plus, unless multiclassing gets an overhaul (a feature that got ambivalent results in the initial poll, so probably still on the table but not a high priority), this would basically guarantee people who do play past 10th just multiclass to get more interesting features instead of boring upgrades to what they can already do.

I definitely think it's something the project has to wrestle with. I feel like "I want my character to feel complete so I can enjoy playing their full suite of abilities" and "I want to make interesting choices even into the higher levels" are both very valid desires that exist in some tension with each other. It's why I personally favor smaller classes (so they can be completed before level 20) with high-level "prestige" options (to allow for interesting choices even into Tier 3 and 4).

 

[TwoSix]

Does this mean that we scrap any spell of above fifth level that isn't just an improvement over a lower level spell?

Maybe not removed, but I'd personally favor moving them from player-facing to DM-grant territory. Learning a level 6+ spell becomes the equivalent of gaining a very rare magic item.

 

[tetrasodium]

Exactly.

People, on another thread, are already saying that a high level fighter should have epic boons and blessing, be on par with likes of Achilles and/or anime style super moves that breaks physics. Good, but if so: when you go so far to justify having decent power at level 11+? What does epic play adds if you are already the equal of a demi-god, a known powerful sovereign, able to shatter the laws of the universe with pure awesomeness?

Spellcasters are already there: At high level you can already make Wish to alter reality, create an army of clones, revoke a soul from the hands of the god of death, rain goshdarn METEORS! in a region, enough to destroy a nice town with a 6 second spell. And all that ONCE PER DAY. What does Epic levels can do? Throw planets at people? Slice gods in thin strips?

High level 5e is already ridiculous in term of power and setting-logic breaking features, do we really need even more power output? Many classes are known to have only boring stuff beyond level 11+ (ranger, monk, looking at you here), and if A5E is to offer a choice of meaningful features at each of the 20 levels of a class, for 12+ classes, I think the designers will lack new ideas if we ask them to do the same up to 30th level.

I'm not aware of the thread, but "anime style" is a pretty wide stretch. Want a fighter who can shoot a bow with a a line attack instead of making however many individual attacks?... sure Want to to a hail of arrows action that provides covering fire/area denial/has a chance of hitting anyone in an area once for less than you'd do when carefully aiming the arrow for each of your attacks in the attack action?... sure. Want to walk on water?... maybe? Want to slash at someone from behind using a dimensionally redirected attack that lets you get behind their shield instead of your full attack?... sure. Want to control one of your weapons at a short distance using your martial prowess while still using your hand(s) for another>... maybe sure? Want to destroy a mountain with your weapon and/or equal or exceed the destructive power of a glass cannon nuker like a sorcerer ?.. no Every one of those examples was taken from anime & wuxia

Wish is an awful example to base any argument on because only a tiny fraction of games get that far & most of those are likely one shots or theory crafting. Unfortunately Wotc did a lot of balancing for casters & everyone else based upon what they could do eventually but didn't really consider how often games get there & you seem to be angling to do the same.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I'm not aware of the thread, but "anime style" is a pretty wide stretch.

It wasnt the only suggestion of a type of high level fighter, mind you. But yeah, slicing spells in two and aerial slice attack were on the list

Not my favorite version of a high level fighter, to say the least.

But I agree that: Jump attacks, Whirlwind attacks, Volley, Mighty weapon/shield throw, Ground slam with blunt weapon, Enemy Throw, Line attack with piercing weapon, Splintering shields and weapons, Bleeding cut with slashing weapon could be possible high level techniques of a fighter without being magical or anime. A little wuxia? Maybe, but I dont mind a little video-game logic from time to time: D&D is still a game, after all, not a Feudal Simulator

 

[Neonchameleon]

People, on another thread, are already saying that a high level fighter should have epic boons and blessing, be on par with likes of Achilles and/or anime style super moves that breaks physics. Good, but if so: when you go so far to justify having decent power at level 11+? What does epic play adds if you are already the equal of a demi-god, a known powerful sovereign, able to shatter the laws of the universe with pure awesomeness?

Spellcasters are already there: At high level you can already make Wish to alter reality, create an army of clones, revoke a soul from the hands of the god of death, rain goshdarn METEORS! in a region, enough to destroy a nice town with a 6 second spell. And all that ONCE PER DAY. What does Epic levels can do? Throw planets at people? Slice gods in thin strips?

High level 5e is already ridiculous in term of power and setting-logic breaking features, do we really need even more power output? Many classes are known to have only boring stuff beyond level 11+ (ranger, monk, looking at you here), and if A5E is to offer a choice of meaningful features at each of the 20 levels of a class, for 12+ classes, I think the designers will lack new ideas if we ask them to do the same up to 30th level.

You've hit the nail right on the head, but not, I think, in the way you think.

Spellcasters at level 15+ are already the equal of demigods, able to shatter the laws of the universe with things like Wish and to destroy towns with fast spells. Non-casters are not. Which makes level pretty meaningless as a measure of power.

I to be honest don't care whether the decision is made to push all the demi-god magic into level 21+ or whether the decision is made to allow the non-casters to be awesome when their levels approach double figures the way wizards are. I just object to the linear fighter quadratic wizard issues and don't care as long as they are on almost the same curve.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

You've hit the nail right on the head, but not, I think, in the way you think.

Spellcasters at level 15+ are already the equal of demigods, able to shatter the laws of the universe with things like Wish and to destroy towns with fast spells. Non-casters are not. Which makes level pretty meaningless as a measure of power.

I to be honest don't care whether the decision is made to push all the demi-god magic into level 21+ or whether the decision is made to allow the non-casters to be awesome when their levels approach double figures the way wizards are. I just object to the linear fighter quadratic wizard issues and don't care as long as they are on almost the same curve.

You are right. To me ''Epic'' levels already exist: its called being level 15+ or so. At level 20 you can already be facing Tiamat in of the AP. Sure, you need to do quests to debuff her and its far from an easy fight, but what more do you want? Go one-on-one with gods and make it look easy?

 

[tetrasodium]

It wasnt the only suggestion of a type of high level fighter, mind you. But yeah, slicing spells in two and aerial slice attack were on the list

Not my favorite version of a high level fighter, to say the least.

But I agree that: Jump attacks, Whirlwind attacks, Volley, Mighty weapon/shield throw, Ground slam with blunt weapon, Enemy Throw, Line attack with piercing weapon, Splintering shields and weapons, Bleeding cut with slashing weapon could be possible high level techniques of a fighter without being magical or anime. A little wuxia? Maybe, but I dont mind a little video-game logic from time to time: D&D is still a game, after all, not a Feudal Simulator

I don't think it's a bad idea to draw from anime /wuxia/etc for inspiration. People love to decry the plight of poor martials who get no cool abilities then immediately step up with "ZOMG in the forgotten realms nobody applies magic to their daily life like every other setting it's not a clonestamp of like greyhawk (eberron darksun spelljammer planescape etc) does/did so the core rulebook classes need to be written for FR & FR only!" Those anime/wuxia stories have a ton of really cool weapon based abilities in them, the fact that the main character is usually stupidly overpowered while d&d doesn't need a main character at the table doesn't mean that those abilities can't be used as inspiration for cool abilities gained over time that work well as part of a group on a reasonable power level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Uhh... why? It's a very well established fact that only a small fraction of games get as far as tenth and the numbers drop into los single digit percentage
Spretty quickly. I don't think its unreaoto ask you to give some reason and details on why

Okay I think I parsed all that.

Plenty of people play later levels. Even 1% of the total player base is a rather large number of people.
I’ve never had a campaign end before level 12.
Also, boring later levels contribute to people not using those later levels.

so, basically 4E?

Not especially. Invocations let you choose every time between new active abilities and passive benefits. 4e didn’t let you choose. You got either a power, or a feat, and that was set in stone.