Level Up (A5E) Class redesign

[CleverNickName]

On the subject of "capstone" abilities, and what any given character class should look like at the level-cap:

It would be amazing if the E6 house rule could find its way into the "advanced" version of 5th Edition. I'd love it if there were a mechanical way for the DM to select a character level cap based on the pacing of the story and the needs of the campaign. Then, at that level, each character gains the capstone ability for their class.

 

[tetrasodium]

On the subject of "capstone" abilities, and what any given character class should look like at the level-cap:

It would be amazing if the E6 house rule could find its way into the "advanced" version of 5th Edition. I'd love it if there were a mechanical way for the DM to select a character level cap based on the pacing of the story and the needs of the campaign. Then, at that level, each character gains the capstone ability for their class.

I'd love that, but attempts at it fail hard because the 5e progression between classes & even archetypes within a single class is such an expletive of one offs & lacking in structure that you can't simply map levels of existing classes over like that in a simple rule because it's less work to redesign the classes & archetype/archtype system & the result has a chance of being easily understood.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe not removed, but I'd personally favor moving them from player-facing to DM-grant territory. Learning a level 6+ spell becomes the equivalent of gaining a very rare magic item.

As I've said before, this is removing toys from the players that they used to have and giving them to the DM to dole out if they feel like it. I know we're mostly DMs here, but we all have players who we want to play this game with us right?

 

[tetrasodium]

As I've said before, this is removing toys from the players that they used to have and giving them to the DM to dole out if they feel like it. I know we're mostly DMs here, but we all have players who we want to play this game with us right?

That touches on a lot of the problems with 5e. Not only did they remove the subjective dials from equipment that a GM could use to influence player choice of one item vrs another item without it being objectively better in every way... They also put in a ton of things that amount to "actually no I ignore that and just do it/know it" when the GM tosses out a hurdle that the players would have been able to engage in. It works fine if the campaign is played like a training montage but it screws with slower progressing campaigns that focus more on developing the story/plot/world/etc by taking tools away from the GM unless they start taking abilities away from players or make up transparent reasons why he's veto'ing the player's veto card.

 

[Horwath]

On the subject of "capstone" abilities, and what any given character class should look like at the level-cap:

It would be amazing if the E6 house rule could find its way into the "advanced" version of 5th Edition. I'd love it if there were a mechanical way for the DM to select a character level cap based on the pacing of the story and the needs of the campaign. Then, at that level, each character gains the capstone ability for their class.

IMHO E9 would work great with 5E;
proficiency bonus gets to +4, so it's a nice difference between +0/+2/+4/+8 for no proficiency/half bonus/proficiency/expertise

fullcasters get one spell of 5th level, and they are not that broken as in 3.5E, halfcasters get 3rd level spells

there are some nice features for every class at 9th level.

from that point you would get for every "level up" a feat/ASI or take another class as a "gestalt" level, with only special class features and extra HP only if new class has larger HD than current. I.E. if you are 9th level wizard and instead of virtual 10th level feat you can get 1st level of barbarian; get all 1st level features as normal multiclass and gain 6HP because that is the difference between 1st level wizard and 1st level barbarian. Then on additional levels you would get 3 more HPs in addition to other barbarian features. Second class can also get only to 9th level.

 

[TwoSix]

As I've said before, this is removing toys from the players that they used to have and giving them to the DM to dole out if they feel like it. I know we're mostly DMs here, but we all have players who we want to play this game with us right?

I play more than I DM, and I have no issue with it.

 

[Haldrik]

I enjoy high magic. I want high tiers towork even better - and more smoothly.

For players who prefer low magic, optional mechanics to end advancement at a low tier, in a way that is satisfying, seems like a worthwhile effort.

When dividing advancement into 4-level tiers that correspond to proficiency bonus improvements, each tier feels different. It is worthwhile to understand each tier.

The lowest tier 1-4 feels fragile, very much like student apprentices, like students alongside Harry Potter.

The next tier 5-8 is probably the "sweet spot" that characterizes the essence of the D&D experience. Powerful magic wizards and powerful natural fighters coexist side-by-side.

The third tier up 9-12 is still "sweet" but the feel changes. This is the level when player characters become movers and shakers who shape the world around them. Traditionally, this is when player characters attract followers, found institutions, run governments, lead armies. They game becomes a bit more like collective world building. Characters still go on personal adventures, but the scope feels different. This is a game like Risk, of nation rivaling nation. With regard to the lower tier "sweet spot", this higher tier can feel like a satisfying accomplishment, a reward for a game well-played.

The next tier up 13-16, becomes a game of superheroes. As enviable as the vast damage is, that the natural fighter can deal, the magical wizard seems able to evade it, thus outmode it. The fighter becomes dependent on magic to keep up, whether by magic items or by ki-like mystical feats. Everything is superpowers. But D&D remains to develop this super genre further.

17-20 is Wish and planet altering superpowers.

21-24 is immortality and shaping universes. A game of world versus world.



It seems useful to think about these tiers more carefully. To jump into the game, depending on the king of game they want to play.

 

[jmucchiello]

I remember in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, there were classes that gave you more narrative-focused choices rather than mechanical choices.

If you are going to dip into MCAU, steal the entire spell system whole. It is a thing of beauty.

 

[Charlaquin]

5E deliberately front-loads classes. It's all about hooking players on the experience.

Apparently they did such a good job they haven't felt a need to go back and fill in the higher levels. Which of course is the opportunity this Level Up project bases it's entire existence on.

Few people play all the way up til level 20. I feel the talk about epic or immortal play is severely premature. Focus Level Up on offering it's customers a fun level-up experience throughout the existing 20 levels, and keep the ideas for level 21-30 abilities for a later follow-up product if and when Level Up is successful.

You could call it Epic Level Up

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

steal the entire spell system whole. It is a thing of beauty.

Care to explain this a little? Sounds intriguing.