Spoilers Star Wars: The Acolyte [Spoilers]

[Maxperson]

Vernestra is duplicitous, more concerned with maintaining the Jedi Order’s reputation than doing the right thing. Her former padawan has whip scars on his back, which also reflects badly on her.

I got the impression that when he went to the dark side, they fought and he lost. She thought she had killed him, which is why she is surprised that he is still alive and explains the scar.

Overall, though, she's not that good. Not evil, but not good.

Sol had poor judgment.

Poor judgment doesn't make you good or evil. It just makes you foolish. He meant well and I would term him good. The death of Osha's mother happened when the mother was starting to discorporate and was taking Osha with her. That was an evil act, but one evil act doesn't change someone from good to evil. He genuinely felt like he was saving her.

I think that overall Sol was good.

Torbin and Kelnacca both retreated from the world.

Neither one of them initiated the evil that happened at the temple. They were trying to save Sol. If they weren't good, what happened would not have struck them so hard that they needed to withdraw like that.

Indara also willingly engaged in a cover-up.

She did it to save Sol and Osha, though. And tried very hard not to kill Mae when they fought. She died trying to save an innocent from being killed.

Yord was lawful stupid and got himself killed but at least he was trying to be a hero in the process.

He seemed very LN to me.

Jecki had some potential but died too soon.

I agree.

Mog seems like a bit of a wet blanket.

Wrong movie, but I can see how you could confuse them with the force and schwartz and all.

 

[Rabulias]

I’ve never liked that “certain point of view” thing. It’s so slimy and disingenuous. The Sith are evil. They just want people to think they’re not. And shame on Obi-Wan for using that same phrase to justify his lies about Luke’s father!

Something about the Star Wars films I noted to friends a long time ago: the Jedi use lies, and the Sith use truth.
Obi-Wan (and Yoda to a lesser degree) lies to Luke about who his father was and who Darth Vader is. Vader tells Luke the truth.
In Attack of the Clones, Count Dooku tells Obi-Wan the (incomplete) truth about Darth Sidious controlling the Senate.
In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine reveals himself as the Sith Lord to Anakin. Obi-Wan and Yoda (with Bail) devise the lie about the outcome of Padme's pregnancy.

This pattern continues in The Acolyte. The Jedi cover things up and conceal the truth from Osha. Mae (an agent of the Sith) comes forward to reveal the truth.

 

[Rabulias]

The death of Osha's mother happened when the mother was starting to discorporate and was taking Osha with her.

Technically it was Mae she was affecting; Sol just thought it was Osha. Osha was locked in her room at this point.

 

[billd91]

Something about the Star Wars films I noted to friends a long time ago: the Jedi use lies, and the Sith use truth.
Obi-Wan (and Yoda to a lesser degree) lies to Luke about who his father was and who Darth Vader is. Vader tells Luke the truth.
In Attack of the Clones, Count Dooku tells Obi-Wan the (incomplete) truth about Darth Sidious controlling the Senate.
In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine reveals himself as the Sith Lord to Anakin. Obi-Wan and Yoda (with Bail) devise the lie about the outcome of Padme's pregnancy.

This pattern continues in The Acolyte. The Jedi cover things up and conceal the truth from Osha. Mae (an agent of the Sith) comes forward to reveal the truth.

Well… it’s a narrative pattern in the stories from the perspective of the protagonists, but it’s not exactly a broad, institutional behavior. The Sith infiltrate and basically lie their way, as moles, to positions of power, dishing out “truths” when it serves their interests. Vader doesn’t exactly walk about the galaxy as Anakin Skywalker for his Imperial career. And Obi-Wan, when faced with the question about Luke’s dad, decides not to tell him his old man’s a serial mass murderer and obscures the story. Hardly shocking or damning.

 

[Maxperson]

Technically it was Mae she was affecting; Sol just thought it was Osha. Osha was locked in her room at this point.

Correct! And technically is the best kind of correct.

You are right, but that correction doesn't change my point at all. Sol still believed he was saving Osha.

 

[Rabulias]

You are right, but that correction doesn't change my point at all. Sol still believed he was saving Osha.

Oh yes! Not disputing your point. It's another example of mistakes made, and highlights (and foreshadows) how Sol's perception was clouded and could not tell Mae from Osha.

 

[Rabulias]

Well… it’s a narrative pattern in the stories from the perspective of the protagonists, but it’s not exactly a broad, institutional behavior. The Sith infiltrate and basically lie their way, as moles, to positions of power, dishing out “truths” when it serves their interests. Vader doesn’t exactly walk about the galaxy as Anakin Skywalker for his Imperial career. And Obi-Wan, when faced with the question about Luke’s dad, decides not to tell him his old man’s a serial mass murderer and obscures the story. Hardly shocking or damning.

Yes, I'm not saying the Sith are 100% honest or the Jedi are 100% dishonest. Critical truths are revealed or hidden at certain points of the story, to serve the purposes of the Sith or the Jedi.

 

[Maxperson]

I was thinking more about the issue @pukunui had about whether or not Mae was turning to thr light and my belief that one of the twins had to be light and the other dark.

The change happened over the season. At the beginning Osha was nice and wanted to help the Jedi, being loyal to them. Mae on the other hand was consumed by the need to take revenge on and kill the Jedi responsible for the death of her mother.

Later on Osha starts becoming rigid with the need to bring Mae in and see her pay for what she had done. Even to the point of being willing to fire an energy weapon at her sister from surprise. About then Mae starts doubting the need for revenge and wants to turn herself in to the Jedi. A huge switch in personalities.

Then we get to the meeting between the twins where Mae and Osha are talking calmly, and then Osha betrays Mae in order to bring her in. That's when Mae changes places with Osha. Osha then gets taken by Qimir and is tempted by the dark side, putting on the helmet.

The change over completes during the fight between the two at the end of the season when Mae is dressed in white and Osha in black. That's when Osha then completes her fall to the dark side by murdering Sol and Mae becomes willing to make the huge sacrifice to save her sister's life.

It's an interesting story and idea.

 

[pukunui]

I got the impression that when he went to the dark side, they fought and he lost. She thought she had killed him, which is why she is surprised that he is still alive and explains the scar.

If the scars were from a fight, they wouldn’t just be on his back. They’d be on his arms or his face or chest. Whip scars on the back are a classic symbol of punishment. 40 lashes and all that.

I think that overall Sol was good.

If they weren't good, what happened would not have struck them so hard that they needed to withdraw like that.

She did it to save Sol and Osha, though.

He seemed very LN to me.

I’m not arguing that they weren’t good people. I’m arguing that none of them was a “force for good”. In the context of this story, there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s not what this story is about.

It’s the broader Star Wars context that troubles me. This story just adds to the constant refrain that the Jedi are badwrongfun; that they are just as bad for the galaxy as the Sith are – a refrain spelled out explicitly by Kylo Ren in TLJ.

I suppose a fundamental issue here is that Star Wars and its writers have not been consistent about the nature of the Force. Is it a yin-yang thing where light and dark are both a natural part of it or is the dark side a cancer that needs to be excised?

At some point, George Lucas ascribed to the latter. He argued that bringing balance to the Force meant getting rid of the dark side entirely, which was achieved when Vader and Sidious both died. I’ve always liked that idea. For one thing, it explains why in the OT no one ever talks about a “light side”. There’s just “the Force” and “the dark side of the Force”.

But then he seemed to flip to having it be more of a yin-yang thing and even have gods of a sort that represent the light and dark sides.

Lucasfilm under Disney seems to have stuck with that approach. When Luke is teaching Rey about the nature of the Force in TLJ, he makes it sound like the dark side is just a natural / equal part of the Force.

They also swapped from having people say they could sense “good” in someone to saying they could sense “light” in them, which I found irksome.

Wrong movie, but I can see how you could confuse them with the force and schwartz and all.


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LOL. I’m talking about Vernestra’s assistant, Mog Adana.

 

[Zardnaar]

I feel like we’re talking past each other here, so I give up.


I’ve never liked that “certain point of view” thing. It’s so slimy and disingenuous. The Sith are evil. They just want people to think they’re not. And shame on Obi-Wan for using that same phrase to justify his lies about Luke’s father!


On its own merits, I can appreciate that about The Acolyte. I think perhaps tragedy is not what I should be watching at this moment in time.


Yeah, I guess. But that’s not what I want from Star Wars. Rebels and the Bad Batch (and the better parts of the Clone Wars) are good examples of what I want. Who’s a good guy / hero and who’s a bad guy / villain is more clear-cut in those shows. Yeah, they’re aimed at kids so that makes sense. Maybe I just prefer Star Wars as a kids show.


Oh, I also really enjoyed Jedi: Fallen Order and Jedi: Survivor.

Even in older SW media you xan have Grey but there's also nuance in it. Something Disney is bad at.

I thunk they're trying at least but aren't very good at it as Disney Princess/Paragon of virtue and cartoon level villain ate more their jam.

Dumb thing is other Disney media is doing it better eh Theawn in the new books *and old) is a villain but he is a lot more Grey with nuance.