Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

[xidoraven]

I'm back!

Ok guys (and gals), I am back and not homeless. However, I still can't keep up with you both - you just create and revise faster than I can.

Everything looks great, and I think you are both making some very amazing progress on these critters. I just want to make sure that every stat block or grouping of stat blocks has included with it which creatures would use those stats (in the case of creatures which are so similar that they could all use the same stats).

Also, once they are finalized, you may copy-post them to the archive forum HERE. That way we have a full list that doesn't include the commentary and discussion about how to revise and edit them. I can do this if you'd like, but I am far behind you both at this point. Let me know what you think.

I will be trying to finalize my dinopriminals and other fictional elements for the Nymian Beastlands campaign setting, which will utilize these prehistoric animals and dinosaurs in its ecology lists. I am also going to need to revise my previous content to be updated to the current status of this project and the deliverables that you have made here (as well as what creatures are still needed - the TO-DO list). Have you both seen the page of content on Elftown about Nym and the ecology and ideas I have for it?

Hopefully I will be around much more now to help and put in my two cents. I know that you didn't lose much without me here, but it's always good to have another set of eyes reviewing when needed. Best wishes,
-will

 

[hamishspence]

Genus/Species names for creatures in each size class

I must admit that I haven't provided much, besides suggestions and one statblock (Deltadromeus).

However- possible list of creatures for each size class.

Gracile tyrannosaur:
Medium: Raptorex, Guanlong
Medium-and-a-half: possibly Proceratosaurus
Large: Eotyrannus
Large-and-a-half: Dryptosaurus
Huge: Albertosaurus, Gorgosaurus

Robust tyrannosaur:
Huge: Daspletosaurus
Huge-and-a-half: Tarbosaurus, Tyrannosaurus

Clawed, fast theropod:
Medium-and-a-half: Fukuiraptor
Large: Australovenator
Large-and-a-half: Neovenator, Megaraptor, Orkoraptor, Aerosteon
Huge: Chilantaisaurus

Spinosaur:
Huge: Baryonyx, Irritator
Huge-and-a-half: Suchomimus
Gargantuan: Spinosaurus

Dromaeosaur:
Small-and-a-half: Velociraptor
Medium: possibly Dromaeosaurus
Medium-and-a-half: Deinonychus
Large: Achillobator, Austroraptor
Large-and-a-half: Utahraptor

These are a few I can think of offhand.

 

[Cleon]

The therizinosaurs look pretty good- seeing as they are more upright than average theropods, and long in the arm as well, a reach equal to their space, as is given, looks pretty good.

The whale stats were interesting as well.

Apparently there are quite a lot of interesting prehistoric whales, but sadly only Basilosaurus appears in 3.5 (in the Frostburn book).

"Killer sperm whales" such as Zygophyseter and Brygmophyseter, which were midway between bull killer whales, and sperm whales, in size, had big teeth, and may have hunted large whales, in packs, might make for an interesting prehistoric "sea monster."

A 24 HD Gargantuan orca or carchalot whale's stats should be an easy and fairly accurate representation of those, I'd have thought.

Anyhow, I've finished statting up an "Orca Redux" using my proposed size/HD scheme, with a few other tweaks, but I think I'll start a new thread "Building a Better Whale" thread to discuss them, rather than go (further) off-topic here.

I'm starting on the "Cachalot Redux" and they needed a lot more work than the orcas. For a start, they are supposed to eat Giant Squid and the SRD Giant Squid would make mincemeat of the SRD Sperm Whale - I crunched the numbers and a full-attacking SRD Giant Squid would do an average of 134.45 hit points of damage per round to the SRD Cachalot Whale, while the whale would only average 34.9 hp/round - at that rate, the Squid needs a mean of 1.12 rounds to kill the whale, and the whale needs 2.06 rounds to kill the Squid!

Mostly this is due to the Giant Squid being unrealistically big & deadly - I statted up a more "realistic" Architeuthis and it comes out as a 6HD Large Animal, a far easier opponent for a sperm whale to tackle.

Once I've finished my 24 HD take on a Cachalot Whale I'll have a cetacean that has a decent chance of tackling the monster that is the SRD Giant Squid, but that'll be another day.

On size- and whether Colossal-and-a-half should get a 40 ft base and Colossal+ a 50 ft base- that might depend on if the creature gets both a bite/head slam attack and a tail slap, or not.

Baleen whales without a head attack, would work- especially if Colossal begins at 80 tons rather than 125. But with a head attack, even the Blue Whale is hard to justify as having a 50 ft base.

I've more-or-less settled on "Super-Colossal" or "Colossal+" with a 40-ft Space and "Epic" with a 50-ft base and I think I'll stick to that for the time being, I think it would make things too confusing if we have both 40 and 50 feet for the same size category.

As for baleen whales, I'm currently thinking a single tail-slap/slam for both standard and full-attack. I was going to divide them into slender "Rorqual whale" and thick-bodied "Right Whale" body types, but the only stat difference I was thinking of was giving the rorquals a higher swimming speed.

While a 60-ton right whale is around 50 feet long and a 60 ton rorqual whale around 70 feet, I don't feel the greater body length necessarily translates into greater combat reach, especially as the 3E precedent leans towards giving most Animals a short reach. Besides, the right whale is supposedly much more agile (if far slower) than a fin whale, so may be able to move its body around into an attacking/defending position faster and hence compensate for the shorter length it can flex.

For that matter, I don't even know that the flexing portion of its tail is a shorter length. For all I know, both species may have the greatest flexibility in the same length of tail, and rorquals just have a longer rigid midsection. (From what I remember of fast-swimming fish, such as tuna, the head and most of the body is fairly stiff, and most of the flexing is near the tail-fin. For all I know, rorquals may be similar.)

Maybe a bit of "research" will cast some light on the dilemma.

 

[Cleon]

Ok guys (and gals), I am back and not homeless. However, I still can't keep up with you both - you just create and revise faster than I can.

Everything looks great, and I think you are both making some very amazing progress on these critters. I just want to make sure that every stat block or grouping of stat blocks has included with it which creatures would use those stats (in the case of creatures which are so similar that they could all use the same stats).

Also, once they are finalized, you may copy-post them to the archive forum HERE. That way we have a full list that doesn't include the commentary and discussion about how to revise and edit them. I can do this if you'd like, but I am far behind you both at this point. Let me know what you think.

Welcome back!

I'm not sure when I'd have time to copy over the dinos I've done so far. Some of the posts are so long they're difficult to edit into a presentable state, so I'm reluctant to spend the extra time to do so. It would be a lot easier just doing a post with links to this thread, but that would obviously make it impossible to scroll down from creature to creature.

As for prehistoric works in progress, I'm becoming increasingly tempted to dare the nightmare that is the Maniraptors, but that will be a very big job so it will probably be a long time before it reaches fruition.

So, I fear you'll have to wait a bit!

 

[hamishspence]

I've more-or-less settled on "Super-Colossal" or "Colossal+" with a 40-ft Space and "Epic" with a 50-ft base and I think I'll stick to that for the time being, I think it would make things too confusing if we have both 40 and 50 feet for the same size category.

yes- rename "Colossal+" "Epic" and it avoids confusion.

I've been using "-and-a-half" formulations because it is easier to keep track of for me than 5 or 6 variants of "pretty durn big"

Also- the next size up from Architeuthis should maybe be Mesonychoteuthis, the Colossal Squid, due to it being larger, heavier, and with more formidable weaponry. Though maybe not quite so powerful as the SRD giant squid.

The Jumbo squid or Humboldt Squid probably works OK as the standard sized D&D squid.

 

[Cleon]

Also- the next size up from Architeuthis should maybe be Mesonychoteuthis, the Colossal Squid, due to it being larger, heavier, and with more formidable weaponry. Though maybe not quite so powerful as the SRD giant squid.

The Jumbo squid or Humboldt Squid probably works OK as the standard sized D&D squid.

Would it surprise you to hear I've already statted up a take on Mesonychoteuthis?

Oh, and getting back to the "prehistoric critter" thread I've also got a homebrew of Tusoteuthis, a Cretaceous warm-water 'monster' squid.

As for the Humboldt Squid (Dosidicus gigas), I think it's pretty clear that the SRD squid is a pretty good fit to it.

Anyhow, the SRD Giant Squid is way more powerful than a realistic Architeuthis. At 300-600 pounds for a big specimen, they're no match for a multi-ton sperm whale.

Still, I like the idea of cachalot whales engaging in terrible battles to the death with giant squid, so to give them a fighting chance against the SRD monster version the whales need a considerable boost in strength. Which they deserve anyway, since the SRD version is barely tougher than an elephant and does a lot less damage to boot!

 

[hamishspence]

SRD squid

I figure the SRD giant squid represents the classic movie and book monster- Mama Squid from Peter Benchley's The Beast, the creature in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea ("Giant squid astern, sir!") and so on.

What changes do you think need to be made to the existing (errataed) maniraptorans like the SRD deinonychosaurs? Maybe cut their speed, but make them better solo hunters?

 

[Cleon]

What changes do you think need to be made to the existing (errataed) maniraptorans like the SRD deinonychosaurs? Maybe cut their speed, but make them better solo hunters?

Well their speed looks acceptable to me (60 ft. with the Run feat works out about 35 mph, which is 80% the speed of an ostrich, so seems OK for a speedy avian predatory dinosaur).

I was thinking about adding a racial bonus to Balance and Climb checks, since their rod-like tail and grasping hands & sickle-toes mean they're pretty well equipped for those skills, but I don't want to overload them with boosts, since they're already quite tough for their size.

For "regular" maniraptors I'll just start by extending their stats to cover the full range of known sizes, from the size of a weasel (the Diminutive Epidexipteryx) to Large (Utahraptor) and then add Very Large and Huge animals to represent raptors of exaggerated size. The smallest maniraptors' stats can also serve as hatchlings of bigger species, of course.

EDIT: Oh, and I would probably tweak their Constitution down a bit. They may be powerful, but I think a Utahraptor /Megaraptor should be a bit more fragile than a Tyrannosaurus, unlike the SRD versions which both have Con 21.

EDITED EDIT: Oh yes, and I was toying with the idea of changing their special attacks to change them to a grapple-and-talons strategy, maybe with their foreclaws as their primary attack with Improved Grab, followed by a claw-rake attack with their talons? Not sure whether I'd cut off the Pounce or not, I'm tempted to give them pounce-and-grab like the SRD big cats.

I also wonder whether their grapple modifier is high enough, if Deinonychus hunted Tenontosaurus in packs as some have theorized, they'll need a grapple modifier good enough to give them a decent chance of using their killing claws in a clinch.

Hmm, a SRD Deinonychus is 4HD Str 17, although I'm thinking of cutting it down to Str 15 to make a realistically sized (~125 lb, 12 feet) Deinonychus as opposed to the 300 lb 16 feet SRD version. That'd be Grapple +7 or +6.

A Tenontosaurus is 2000-4500 pounds, so is probably at the upper range of the Large size, say around 6HD and Str 25, which works out at Grapple +16. A 9-10 point difference means a medium 'raptor would have little chance of getting a hold and using their killing talon effectively (assuming I'm changing them to a secondary attack or claw-rake, as mentioned above).

Maybe give dromaeosaurs Improved Grapple as a bonus feat?

 

[hamishspence]

Speed

The small ones might be pretty fast, but I got the impression that the larger ones (Deinonychus, Utahraptor) were, in fact, pretty short-legged compared to many other coeleurosaurs- like the ornithomimids. With a ratio of lower leg to upper, somewhat lower than most high speed sprinters.

And thick-legged- Utahraptor had very thick leg bones.

Still, 35 mph is a little more plausible than some figures given in fiction:

"50, 60 mph, if they ever got into the open. And they're astonishing jumpers" (Muldoon, Jurassic Park)

Bu the real thing, was probably more Average Horse, than Racehorse.

Given that figures for Utahraptor seem to vary from 18 to 25 ft, the 18 ft ones could be the baseline, and the 25 ft ones could be advanced, Very Large animals.

 

[Cleon]

The small ones might be pretty fast, but I got the impression that the larger ones (Deinonychus, Utahraptor) were, in fact, pretty short-legged compared to many other coeleurosaurs- like the ornithomimids. With a ratio of lower leg to upper, somewhat lower than most high speed sprinters.

And thick-legged- Utahraptor had very thick leg bones.

Still, 35 mph is a little more plausible than some figures given in fiction:

Well I did toy with the idea of dropping them to 50 feet but I'm leaving the 'stock' dromaeosaurs at speed 60 feet for the time being, like they are in the SRD.

Given that figures for Utahraptor seem to vary from 18 to 25 ft, the 18 ft ones could be the baseline, and the 25 ft ones could be advanced, Very Large animals.

Well going by my size scale it looks more like a Utahraptor would be Big (~16-18 feet, 250-400 pounds) to Large (~20-24 feet, 500-1000 pounds), but I've tweaked the standard Utahraptors up to Large to match the revised SRD size.