Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

[hamishspence]

shark relationships

Interestingly, Otodus isn't aways classed as a relative of the sandtiger. Here, it is described as ancestral to the porbeagle- and great whites and megalodons, while not that closely related, are still closer related than they are to the porbeagle:

Great White Shark : Relatives, Living & Fossil

I'm not sure how well supported this view is, but it does place megalodon as within Lamnidae, rather than as closer related to the sand tiger shark (since Lamnidae includes the Great White, the porbeagle, their most recent common ancestor, and all its descendants.

Even if Otodus and Carcharocles megalodon are related, and both closer related to sand sharks than "mackerel sharks" (Lamnidae), that doesn't mean that they would have looked like sand sharks:

http://www.megalodonexpeditions.com/risefall.htm

 

[Cleon]

So,

Orcas can be 16 ft Huge, 32 ft Gargantuan,
Great Whites 14-15 ft Large, 18-20 ft Huge
Megalodons 52 ft Gargantuan, 75 ft Colossal
Sperm whales 35-60 ft Gargantuan, 70-80 ft Colossal?

These seem like good baselines.

Look fine to me, although I would probably widen the Megs to something like 40-75 ft Gargantuan, 75-100 ft Colossal.

Come to think of it- instead of just going with "dire shark" to represent generic Huge and Gargantuan prehistoric sharks, we could pick out some of the more interesting ones. Dragon 318 had stats for Helicoprion, a shark with a whorl-like lower jaw. And there are possibily others.

Such as Cretoxyrhina, sometimes called "the Ginsu Shark", which was present in the late Cretaceous,, and was a bit larger than a Great White. Or Isurus hastalis, the broad-toothed mako, another big shark, believed to be ancestral to the Great White.

As far as its 3rd edition D&D stats go Cretoxyrhina would surely be nigh identical to a Great White. At best it's only a bit bigger.

 

[hamishspence]

Ginsu shark

Probably- baseline Dire Shark might do.

I'm not sure how closely related megalodon was to the lamnids- here:

Lamniformes

it's group is given as Otodontidae, and placed just below the lamnid sharks.

On the other hand, this tree also places Basking sharks right at the bottom, whereas the one on elasmo-research.org puts them at the top, above thresher sharks but below lamnids.

And, annoyingly, doesn't show where otodontids are placed.

40 ft minimum for a just-turned-adult megalodon makes sense, and about 75 ft for a megalodon of the largest size, just at the bare minimum for Colossal, and built according to the extra-bulky Gottfried model, also works.

on Hit Dice: given the value of 20 HD for a Gargantuan Spinosaurus, I'd probably use this for smaller Gargantuan creatures:

Gargantuan Orca- 32 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (female) 35 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (male) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal Sperm Whale (such as the one that sunk the Essex) 40 HD

Gargantuan megalodon (young adult) 40 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan megalodon (adult) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal megalodon (based on largest teeth known) 75 ft, 40 HD.

Do these seem about right?

 

[Cleon]

on Hit Dice: given the value of 20 HD for a Gargantuan Spinosaurus, I'd probably use this for smaller Gargantuan creatures:

Gargantuan Orca- 32 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (female) 35 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (male) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal Sperm Whale (such as the one that sunk the Essex) 40 HD

Gargantuan megalodon (young adult) 40 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan megalodon (adult) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal megalodon (based on largest teeth known) 75 ft, 40 HD.

Do these seem about right?

Those Hit Dice look OK to me, or at least they're a better fit to 3E monster HD than giving a Gargantuan sperm whale 12 HD!

Although I'd rather have sperm whales go up in dozens of Hit Dice and sharks in tens, partially because I suspect cetaceans outperform fish of the same size (due to their higher metabolism), and partly just to introduce a bit of variety.

e.g.:
Huge (half-grown) sperm whale - 12 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) sperm whale - 18 HD
Gargantuan (adult) sperm whale - 24 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder bull) sperm whale - 36 HD
Colossal (Moby Dick) sperm whale - 48 HD

And a Megadon could go
Huge (half-grown) - 10 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) - 15 HD
Gargantuan (adult) - 20 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder) - 30 HD
Colossal (Megashark!) - 40 HD

 

[hamishspence]

Huge (half-grown) sperm whale - 12 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) sperm whale - 18 HD
Gargantuan (adult) sperm whale - 24 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder bull) sperm whale - 36 HD
Colossal (Moby Dick) sperm whale - 48 HD

And a Megadon could go
Huge (half-grown) - 10 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) - 15 HD
Gargantuan (adult) - 20 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder) - 30 HD
Colossal (Megashark!) - 40 HD

I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.

It might work well for other cetaceans- possibly with an extension to Colossal for the biggest blue whales- 60 HD "Colossal+"

Makes for an interesting Animal Companion in a high level game.

3.5 MM does suggest that Colossal creatures have a minimum of 12 HD, but in practice, almost nothing that big has HD that low. Even Gargantuan was seriously stretching it.

I'm guessing the adult female sperm whale (Wikipedia lists it as typically 35 ft long and 15 tonnes) marks the beginning of Gargantuan- and would have 24 HD under this system.

Also- after checking the Pathfinder monster descriptions,

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterIndex.html

I've noticed that their creatures tend to be a bit closer to the normal size and weights, than some of the D&D 3.5 MM1 and MM2 animals.

For example Orcas are listed as between 15 and 25 ft long.

And most of the Dire Animals are described based on real ones- dire bear is short-faced bear, Dire Croc is Sarcosuchus, etc.

(on the other hand, their Large croc is 1400 pounds and 14 ft long- a bit on the heavy side for a 14 ft croc).

 

[hamishspence]

Robust vs Gracile

Come to think of it, the Robust advancement (multiples of 6) vs the Gracile advancement (multiples of 5) can be used to distinguish the carnosaurs, and the sauropods, as well:

Diplodocids- gracile- Diplodocus as a 15 HD Huge-and-a-half creature, and so on

Brachiosaurs/titanosaurs/etc- robust- Apatosaurus/Brachiosaurus as 24 HD Gargantuan creature, and so on

Tyrannosaurus- robust 18 HD Huge-and-a-half
Spinosaurus- gracile 20 HD Gargantuan
Allosaurus/Albertosaurus- gracile 10 HD Huge
Daspletosaurus- robust 12 HD Huge

It works pretty well. and the T. rex, Allosaurus, and Spinosaurus all end up with the WoTC values for their Hit Dice.

 

[Cleon]

Come to think of it, the Robust advancement (multiples of 6) vs the Gracile advancement (multiples of 5) can be used to distinguish the carnosaurs, and the sauropods, as well:

Diplodocids- gracile- Diplodocus as a 15 HD Huge-and-a-half creature, and so on

Brachiosaurs/titanosaurs/etc- robust- Apatosaurus/Brachiosaurus as 24 HD Gargantuan creature, and so on

I'd rather not do it that way for the Sauropods since I don't feel there's that much difference in their physiology and it seems a lot of extra work separating them into gracile and robust stat blocks. Not to mention that my current take on sauropods doesn't follow the standard "double HD each size step" progression, but uses something a bit more gradual.

I would use it for gracile/robust theropods though. Come to think of it, I already do - my current stats give a standard Tyrannosaurus 18 HD, a Big Allosaurus 15 HD. That was just because I followed D&D precedent rather than some cunning 5/6 HD progression scheme, though.

 

[Cleon]

I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.

Well I agree that Gargantuan isn't appropriate for a realistic Orca Of Unusual Size, but I was thinking 12 HD Huge would fit an average adult male orca. An average sperm whale is 40-50 feet long, which is Gargantuan 24HD under this scheme, an average orca is about half that size (20-25 feet, as big as a half-grown sperm whale calf). Huge-and-a-half would be appropriate for a very large bull orca (30-33 feet).

Using our 12-36HD model for sperm whales, I was thinking a 9HD orca would be a subadults, an average adult would have 12 HD, an enormous male 18HD and the "Moby Dicks" of the orca world would be Gargantuan whales with 24-27 HD.

I'm guessing the adult female sperm whale (Wikipedia lists it as typically 35 ft long and 15 tonnes) marks the beginning of Gargantuan- and would have 24 HD under this system.

Looking at the sizes, it's obvious that the weights will be a bit higher than is standard for creatures of that size but I think we can get away with that. Cetaceans are often massive for their lengths, and D&D often doesn't give weights for big marine animals anyway.

Also- after checking the Pathfinder monster descriptions,

Monster Index

I've noticed that their creatures tend to be a bit closer to the normal size and weights, than some of the D&D 3.5 MM1 and MM2 animals.

For example Orcas are listed as between 15 and 25 ft long.

And most of the Dire Animals are described based on real ones- dire bear is short-faced bear, Dire Croc is Sarcosuchus, etc.

(on the other hand, their Large croc is 1400 pounds and 14 ft long- a bit on the heavy side for a 14 ft croc).

Hmm, that does seem a little heavy. From the reading I've done, a particularly big crocodile is somewhere around 16 feet long and 1500-2000 pounds. Scaling that down to 14 feet (assuming it follows a cube-root relationship) and you'd get 1000-1340 pounds, so it looks like 1400 pounds is in the upper range of croc bodyweights.

I'd just round it up to 15 feet and 1500 pounds, that's close enough as far as I'm concerned.

If you'll pardon me shilling my Building a Better Crocodile post, I was thinking their lengths & weights would go something like this...

Crocodile Redux - 3 HD, 11-12 feet, 500 pounds
Large Crocodile - 7 HD, 15 feet, 1500 pounds
Giant Crocodile - 13 HD, 30 feet, 12000 pounds

It's not a great fit to my current size schema. The standard crocodile in particular is too big for its place in the progression. We may want to trim its size and weight a bit and fit the rest into a smoother progression, maybe something like...

Medium Crocodile - 2 HD, 7 feet, 125 pounds
Big Crocodile (Standard Redux) - 3 HD, 10 feet, 400 pounds
Large Crocodile - 5 HD, 14 feet, 1000 pounds
Very Large Crocodile (Large Redux) - 7 HD, 20 feet, 3000 pounds
Huge Crocodile - 10 HD, 30 feet, 12000 pounds
Enormous Crocodile (Giant Redux) - 13 HD, 40 feet, 25000 pounds
Gargantuan Crocodile - 20 HD, 60 feet, 75000 pounds

 

[Cleon]

I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.

It might work well for other cetaceans- possibly with an extension to Colossal for the biggest blue whales- 60 HD "Colossal+"

Makes for an interesting Animal Companion in a high level game.

By the way, by s curious serendipity when I first read this post I'd just come across this newspaper report about orcas hunting lamniform sharks.

Not only does this demonstrate that our "Orca Redux" definitely have to be tougher than regular sharks, the use of "karate chops" with their tails and exploiting the weaknesses of the shark's anatomy to stun them rather reminded me of a certain D&D character class, which led me to stat the following...

 

[Cleon]

Building a Better Killer Whale

Karate Killer Whale
Awakened Orca 2nd level Monk
Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 11d10+2d8+65 (134 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +2 Wisdom, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+28
Attack: Bite +18 melee (2d6+12) or unarmed strike +18 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+12) or unarmed strike +18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+8) or flurry of blows +16/+16/+11/+6 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +10
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +20* (+16 without blindsight), Spot +20* (+16 without blindsight), Swim +16, Tumble +11
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack, Run, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 18]
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pod (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral
Advancement: 12–15 HD (Huge); 16–29 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

Karate killer whales are sapient orcas, given intelligence by the druid's awaken spell, many of whom have gained levels in character classes. These creatures have a sophisticated culture based around self-discipline, survival and reverence towards nature. Most karate killer whales are monks, the above being a typical example, but a few become druids. These orca druids play a honoured and vital role in karate killer whale society, because without high-level monks to case awaken on their newborn calves, karate killer whale civilization would be reduced to beasts in a generation.

These creatures show no hostility towards most other races, but show little interest in helping non-orcas either. They have a particular dislike of sahuagin, due to the latter's destructive and chaotic nature, and extend this antipathy to the sea devils allies the sharks. Karate killer whales will go to considerable length to kill and each sahuagin and giant sharks.

A typical karate killer whale about 30 feet long. They eat fish, squid, seals, and other whales.

Karate killer whale speak Aquan.

Combat
Karate killer whales are cunning and ferocious fighters who often make well-coordinated group attacks. They usually close into melee as fast as possible, then use Stunning Fist strikes to render their foes helpless while barraging them with a torrent of terrible blows from their jaws and tail-flukes. If the foe is too powerful for a conventional approach they can be surprisingly devious.

Blindsight (Ex): A killer whale can “see” by emitting high-frequency sounds, inaudible to most other creatures, that allow them to locate objects and creatures within 120 feet. A silence spell negates this and forces the whale to rely on its vision, which is approximately as good as a human’s.

Evasion (Ex): If a karate killer whale makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, it takes no damage instead. Evasion can be used only if the whale is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless karate killer whale does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Hold Breath (Ex): A killer whale can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Skills
A whale has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A whale has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsight is negated.