Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

[Cleon]

This caught my attention. In order to complete its full attack action against a grappled (or any other) opponent, even with Improved Grab and Pounce, the Deinonychus would have to make its grapple check at -20 to hold the opponent while not being considered grappled itself. Otherwise, as soon as it grabs the opponent, it can only take actions normally allowed in a grapple, and only at the beginning of its NEXT turn. (An exception would be a talon-stab, if you consider it the same as a rake attack - it gets to make one for free as soon as it grapples).

I think it's OK, since its Pounce is basically the same as a big cat's, which allows for a full attack without a grapple check penalty.

As it is now, I think it, and all the Maniraptors, are doing way too much damage. Velociraptor is doing 2d6+2d3+1d8 damage on a charge. In my opinion the talons should be exclusively talon-stab attacks, not part of their regular attack action unless they grapple or charge.

I make it 1d6+2d3+1d8, where's the 2d6 from? Regular weapons only get an attack bonus on a charge, not double damage.

It is a lot of damage, but I wanted to keep it in line with the SRD big cats - a 3HD leopard does 1d6+3+4d3+4 (average 18.5), is about midway between my 3HD Dromaeosaurus's 1d6+1+2d3+1d8+1 (av. 14) and 4HD Deinonychus's 1d8+2+2d4+2+2d6+3 (av. 23.5), a tiger's 2d8+12+2d6+3+2d8+6 pounce (av. 46!) is more or less exactly the same as my Utahraptor's 2d6+6+2d6+6+3d6+9 (45.5), and considerably more than the 6HD Achillobator's 2d4+4+2d4+4+2d8+6 pounce (av. 33).

So I think the damage is in keeping with the sample creatures I'm using as a baseline, it's not my fault the sample creatures are too vicious!

Anyhow, as I said earlier I think an easy solution is just to say a more realistic version of a Maniraptor uses the stats of the next stage down (Dromaeosaurus for Deinonychus, Achillobator for Utahraptor, et cetera), and the provided stats take after the prehistoric monsters of cinema, pulp-fiction and comic books as much as they do nature.

EDIT: Another thought. By default, Improved Grab only works on smaller opponents. If you want it to affect larger opponents too, you have to specify.

That's a good point, I suspect everyone thinks it just follows normal grapple size limits. I'd better amend it.

 

[Steinhauser]

"Dire Raptor." I like that. It's exactly what people want to hear when raptors come tearing through the trees.

 

[hamishspence]

Raptor stats

The raptor stats look pretty good.

Though, going by weight and length, I'd say Achillobator, at least at full 16-18 ft size, probably works better as a low-end Large creature, with Utahraptor also Large, but with a bit more hit dice.

Still, it can be used to represent deinonychosaurs midway between adult Deinonychus and adult Utahraptor.

Seems a bit quiet at the moment.

 

[Cleon]

The raptor stats look pretty good.

Though, going by weight and length, I'd say Achillobator, at least at full 16-18 ft size, probably works better as a low-end Large creature, with Utahraptor also Large, but with a bit more hit dice.

Still, it can be used to represent deinonychosaurs midway between adult Deinonychus and adult Utahraptor.

The genera names are as much placeholders as anything else, a particular species does not necessarily fit a particular size category terribly well so I'd allow a bit of "wiggle room".

Seems a bit quiet at the moment.

Yes, it is disturbingly silent on this thread. I left the door on my super-raptor cage open, and they've been devouring anybody who's come into this thread to post.

*Ahem*

Honestly, I just haven't found time to do much more work on the Maniraptors, except for finishing off a couple at the "impossibly big" end of the scale to use for the (obsolete) model of Megaraptor and the various super-raptors that crop up in computer games.

I'm thinking about the smaller end of the 'Raptor scale now - the Diminutive and upwards. As well as regular "running raptors" I was thinking we could add subentries for "flapping raptors" that climb and glide in trees.

Did you see any of the reports about the paper claiming Sinornithosaurus was venomous? I will certainly be including that as an option for the Tiny (if not bigger) raptors!

 

[hamishspence]

Venom

Now that looks interesting. Looks like the ideas of poisonous dinosaurs may not be so far-fetched, even if Spielberg overdid it a bit.

Also, going by this-

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/091210_tawa

Herrerasaurus looks to be a theropod after all- so it works as the type specimen for primitive theropods.

 

[Cleon]

Now that looks interesting. Looks like the ideas of poisonous dinosaurs may not be so far-fetched, even if Spielberg overdid it a bit.

Well it was Crichton who gave them poison, although you can still blame Spielberg for that Dilophosaurus's frill.

Also, going by this-

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/091210_tawa

Herrerasaurus looks to be a theropod after all- so it works as the type specimen for primitive theropods.

Yes, I saw that in the newspapers a couple of weeks ago. It's wonderful that there are still people making important discoveries in the field.

We don't need to use Herrerasaurus as a "typical primitive theropod" anyway, we can easily use something else - like Coelophysis, which I've already done 3E stats for.

 

[hamishspence]

The ability to spit poison long distances was in the Crichton version- but Spielberg made the poison sticky and gooey as well, rather than like the way spitting snakes spit it- squirted through tiny holes in the front teeth.

Going by the description though, a poisoned bite rather than long-distance spitting seems more plausible for these newly discovered poisonous dinosaurs.

 

[Cleon]

The ability to spit poison long distances was in the Crichton version- but Spielberg made the poison sticky and gooey as well, rather than like the way spitting snakes spit it- squirted through tiny holes in the front teeth.

Going by the description though, a poisoned bite rather than long-distance spitting seems more plausible for these newly discovered poisonous dinosaurs.

Well I'd consider it rather speculative that they were venomous - you can't really say for sure what the groove on the teeth was for, or whether there was a venom-gland in that space in the jaw.

Still, for the purposes of this thread it makes sense to assume they're venomous, so we add a bit of variety to the maniraptors. The report quotes the paper's authors theorizing the venom was to weaken prey so they could be caught and killed more easily, so it sounds like it should be a Strength-damage venom.

 

[Cleon]

Anyhow, getting back to the stats.

I've finished the first draft for the wee little maniraptors (those less than Small in size). I've fiddled with their ability scores a bit so they don't quite follow the "reverse Advancement" scheme, since they ended up with Strength and Constitution scores that didn't feel right if I used the standard pattern. (e.g. Str 5 and Con 12 for a Diminutive raptor!).

I've also cut their speed by 10 feet. Most Tiny creatures aren't as fast as their Medium-sized brethren.

As before, these are rather exaggerated creatures, almost 'dire raptors'. A realistic raptor would probably have the stats of the next size smaller (e.g. a Realistic Tiny Maniraptor could have the Diminutive Maniraptor's stats).

After mulling it over I also decided to have the " A Deinonychus can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb checks" apply to Jump checks as well, so that the wee little raptors can leap long distances too. This increases the Small and Medium sized raptors Jump modifier up by a point or two as well.

While working on them I had a charming idea... raptor swarms. No palaeontological justification for them, of course, but who could possibly complain about having hundreds of Diminutive raptors flocking through the jungle, devouring every animal in their path. I suspect they'll be a pygmy species of Sinornithosaurus and be venomous too boot.

Anyhow, I'll put the current 'mini raptor' stats in my next post, then edit the 'standard-sized maniraptors' I did earlier to add the new Jump modifiers.

 

[Cleon]

Rough Draft Mini-Maniraptors

Diminutive Maniraptor (Epidexipteryx)
Late Jurassic (150 MYA)
Diminutive Animal
Hit Dice: ¼d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–11 [–15 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1) and foreclaws +6 melee (1) and talons +6 melee (1d3-4)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+8 melee 1d4-4], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +20* [+24 in undergrowth], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6
Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

6 inches tall, 18 inches, 8 ounces.

Tiny Maniraptor (Bambiraptor)
Late Cretaceous (75 MYA)
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: ½d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–6 [–10 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4-3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4-3) and 2 foreclaws +4 melee (1d2-3) and talons +4 melee (1d4-3)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+6 melee 1d6-3], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [+20 in undergrowth], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6
Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 1 HD (Tiny);
Level Adjustment: —

1 foot tall, 3 feet long, 2-3 pounds.

Microraptor is a gliding version.

Sinornithosaurus is a venomous version. [1d2 Str poison?]

Very Small Maniraptor (Buitreraptor)
Late Cretaceous (75 MYA)
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–5 [–9 without racial bonus]
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4-1)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4-1) and 2 foreclaws +4 melee (1d2-1) and talons +4 melee (1d4-1)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, talon-stab [+6 melee 1d6-1], pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [+20 in undergrowth], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6
Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm forests or plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —

4 feet long, 15 inches tall, 6-8 pounds.