Rate 4e!

[Vyvyan Basterd]

For the record, legality and morality are not the same thing. Laws can have no basis in right or wrong. The are immoral laws. There have been people in history who have done the right thing, even though it was illegal.
You can say that downloading the PDFs is illegal, but you can't say that it's immoral without backing it up with something more than "It's illegal."
I haven't seen them yet and I can't wait for them to come.

Exactly why I avoided the use of the word "immoral." There is room for debate as to whether downloading the file is immoral or not.

I called it unethical. The ethical ramifications here are much more clear cut. Someone may convince me that the severity of the ethical infraction is minor, but I doubt anyone could build a good argument for an ethical reason to download illegal pdfs.

 

[Pinotage]

But the 4E PHB is the most vanilla, boring generic game manual I've ever seen and gone through. It happens to have a D&D logo on it. And that's it. The art is kind of nice.

-DM Jeff

It's funny, but I was thinking roughly the same thing. 4e is so simplified/gamist in many ways that it appears sterile and boring. I mean, I haven't seen the books or anything, but that's the impression I get from seeing the material out here. They've streamlined it to such an extent that it's now quite sterile and lacks character. Flawless isn't always a good thing.

I'm sure it's a fun game, though, and that with time it will definitely build more character as more options are added. I felt the same thing about True20 in the early days - very sterile system with very few options that it was boring. Thankfully that's much improved and I'm sure 4e will as well.

Pinotage

 

[AllisterH]

It's funny, but I was thinking roughly the same thing. 4e is so simplified/gamist in many ways that it appears sterile and boring. I mean, I haven't seen the books or anything, but that's the impression I get from seeing the material out here. They've streamlined it to such an extent that it's now quite sterile and lacks character. Flawless isn't always a good thing.

I'm sure it's a fun game, though, and that with time it will definitely build more character as more options are added. I felt the same thing about True20 in the early days - very sterile system with very few options that it was boring. Thankfully that's much improved and I'm sure 4e will as well.

Pinotage

But isn't this true of any noncampaign setting game system? Reading say for example GURPS core rulebook will put me to sleep whereas even though I disliked the original WoD system mechanics, I can't argue against it being "nice to read".

 

[DaveMage]

But the 4E PHB is the most vanilla, boring generic game manual I've ever seen and gone through. It happens to have a D&D logo on it. And that's it. The art is kind of nice.

We'll never know the answer, but I wonder how well it would do if it didn't have the D&D logo...

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

We'll never know the answer, but I wonder how well it would do if it didn't have the D&D logo...

Not as well. But that's because the D&D logo carries with it more adventure support than any other game system.

 

[BryonD]

But isn't this true of any noncampaign setting game system?

No. IMO the 3X SRD is exactly the opposite. It begs to be molded and expanded. It is very far from sterile. It might take a little work, but that work is so very very worth it.

 

[lutecius]

yay! first double post. i didn't even know how to make one.

 

[lutecius]

Where is my "as bad as expected but i'm not playing 3e either and i do like polls" option?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

No. IMO the 3X SRD is exactly the opposite. It begs to be molded and expanded. It is very far from sterile. It might take a little work, but that work is so very very worth it.

People are already molding and expanding 4E to their tastes and the game hasn't even been officially released. From what I've seen it will take a little work to modify 4th Edition in ways that you can enjoy.

 

[BryonD]

People are already molding and expanding 4E to their tastes and the game hasn't even been officially released. From what I've seen it will take a little work to modify 4th Edition in ways that you can enjoy.

I don't doubt it.
My answer to AllisterH's question about "any noncampaign setting game system" remains "no".
I agree with Pinotage's general assessment. That doesn't mean it is a balck and white, yes or no issue, and I don't think Pinotage meant it as an absolute.
IMO, the simplicity design goal, among other things, resulted in a trade off of the readiness for molding and expanding. To me it looks vastly more simple. And sterile. And boring.
Are there specific exceptions here and there? Oh hell yeah, there are some bits and pieces I think are great. But as a whole? Simple, sterile, boring.