Epic level character question

[Tom]

I'm planning an epic level character, right now I'm a 6th Fighter/10th Wizard;and currently he kicks tail. By adding defensive spells like shield, blink, displacement, and haste, he's hard to hit. By adding personal offensive spells like enlarge, bull's str, keen edge, etc, he's can put out some impressive damage. All of these are saving throw proof and usually spell resistance proof. And along with this he's still got a few spell slots left for offensive arcane firepower, that are subject to Saves/Resistance.

My original plan was to become 6thFighter/14th Wizard to get nice little spells like Tenser Transformation to add to my fighting abilites as well as more firepower like Delay Blast Fireball.

Just two problems, unless I'm reading the epic level rules wrong, he's not going to work out as an epic character very well. Because he can't cast 9th level Wizard spells, he won't be able to get epic level Wizard spells or even get 8th and 9th level Wizard spells. And since I'm primarily a defensive spellcaster, it doesn't do me much good to get a better DC for the spells I cast.

Secondly, since I was planning to stay at 6th fighter, I think that means I can't advance to Epic fighter, because I'm not at least tenth level in fighter.

If the above is true, should I change my plan to go to 10th Fighter/10th Wizard so at least I can advance in Epic Fighter (get more feats, hp's, Epic to-hit)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Moved to Rules.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Jolly Giant]

Hi Tom. There are a few misunderstandings to clear up here. I'm guessing you've read what the DMG has to say about epic characters? The ELH explains it a lot better...

First of all, the term "epic character" needs to be defined. An epic character is any character with an effective character level (ECL) of 21 or higher. That means your attack bonus and base save bonus start following the epic rules, and you're qualified for epic feats. BUT!, if you're a FTR 10/ WIZ 11, then your neither an "epic fighter" or an "epic wizard" (your still an epic character, though!).

You don't start progressing as an "epic wizard" until you have 20 levels of wizard, and you don't become an "epic fighter" until you've past 20 levels of fighter. This means you continue to gain new spells all the way up to your twentieth WIZARD level, not your twentieth CHARACTER level! That's good, right? On the downside, you're limited to normal feat-selection for your bonus fighter feats until you have 21 FIGHTER levels; then you can start picking from the list of bonus feats available to "epic fighters". That's not so good... You can of course select those feats as your standard 1/3 lvls feats, as long as you meet the prerequisites.

When the books refer to characters becoming epic after only ten class levels, that's ten levels of a PRESTIGE class. A rogue 5/ assassin 11 would be an "epic assassin", but NOT an "epic character"! He would in other words NOT be qualified for epic feats, and he'd still follow the normal attack and save progression for an assassin.

Hope this clarifies matters for you. If not, I'll post again. Or someone else will beat me to it... Good luck!

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom. There are a few misunderstandings to clear up here. I'm guessing you've read what the DMG has to say about epic characters? The ELH explains it a lot better...

First of all, the term "epic character" needs to be defined. An epic character is any character with an effective character level (ECL) of 21 or higher. That means your attack bonus and base save bonus start following the epic rules, and you're qualified for epic feats. BUT!, if you're a FTR 10/ WIZ 11, then your neither an "epic fighter" or an "epic wizard" (your still an epic character, though!).

You don't start progressing as an "epic wizard" until you have 20 levels of wizard, and you don't become an "epic fighter" until you've past 20 levels of fighter. This means you continue to gain new spells all the way up to your twentieth WIZARD level, not your twentieth CHARACTER level! That's good, right? On the downside, you're limited to normal feat-selection for your bonus fighter feats until you have 21 FIGHTER levels; then you can start picking from the list of bonus feats available to "epic fighters". That's not so good... You can of course select those feats as your standard 1/3 lvls feats, as long as you meet the prerequisites.

When the books refer to characters becoming epic after only ten class levels, that's ten levels of a PRESTIGE class. A rogue 5/ assassin 11 would be an "epic assassin", but NOT an "epic character"! He would in other words NOT be qualified for epic feats, and he'd still follow the normal attack and save progression for an assassin.

Hope this clarifies matters for you. If not, I'll post again. Or someone else will beat me to it... Good luck!

I've got the ELH and that's what confused me. On page 5 it says "Epic characters- those whose character level is 21st or higher- are handled slightly different from non-epic characters." Then it goes on to talk about how to advance a class beyond 20th level.

As an example as to why it is unclear for multiclass characters check out the bottom of page 7 then look at the following example. Suppose I have a 10th fighter/10th Ranger (total base attack bonus = 20). According to what you're saying, I'd have to go to 20th class level fighter before I could go up to Epic level fighter (base attack increases to 30? thereby getting 6 attacks). Or how about if I go to 20 Fighter/ 20th Ranger (base attack 40, # of attacks=8). I don't think it works like that, otherwise who would want to go epic, you won't increase your # of attacks. To add # of attacks you would just keep adding classes.

Another example: Suppose I have a 10 Wiz/ 10th Sorc. If I eventually become 20th Wiz/20th Sorc, will I get all the Wiz spell slot (All 4's) and all the Sorc spell slots (All 6's). The way I'm reading it (on page 7, 4th bullet) no, new spells per day stop at 20th character level. But by doing that, epic doesn't mean much because you can't add epic spells if you can't cast the highest level spell in the class (see page 71, next to last paragraph).

I just don't think they explained enough about a multiclass character going epic.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

With that Fighter 10/Ranger 10 you mentioned, he IS only an Epic Character. He only becomes an Epic (inserty class name here) when he has OVER 20 levels in that class. HOWEVER, once you become an Epic CHARACTER you no longer gain saves and BAB as the normal class. Instead, you get it at the slower rate of an Epic Character.

 

[Crothian]

Spells stop when the caster level equals 20th level, not the character level.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I've got the ELH and that's what confused me. On page 5 it says "Epic characters- those whose character level is 21st or higher- are handled slightly different from non-epic characters." Then it goes on to talk about how to advance a class beyond 20th level.

Yah. I had this problem too.

Here's another way of saying things - and I'll keep the character level/class level distinction clear.

At 21st character level, your character becomes an epic character - he stops gaining BAB and base saves (from any class), and can acquire epic feats for his general-every-three-character-level feats. All remaining class features are unaffected - spells/day, spells known, bonus feats, special abilities, etc. Number of attacks no longer increases after 20th character level, barring epic feats.

At 21st class level, your character becomes a member of an epic class (i.e. a 21st level fighter is an epic fighter). By necessity, a member of an epic class is also an epic character (see above). A member of an epic class no longer uses the PHB rules for advancement, but uses the epic advancement for his class. Characters who are members of epic spellcasting classes no longer gain any additional spells/day or known without using feats.

Each of these conditions is applied separately. It is quite possible to be an epic character, but not a member of an epic class. Moreover, if multiclassed, it is possible to be an epic character, have one class be an epic class, and one (or more) of the remaining classes be non-epic.

All the normal XP restrictions on multi-classing still apply to epic characters.

To answer your specific examples:
Your Ftr 10/Rog 10 has a total BAB of 17, and thus 3 iterative attacks. No matter how he advances after 20th character level - even if he becomes a Ftr 20/Rog 10/Bar 20 - he will only ever have 3 iterative attacks.

Your Wiz 10/Sor 10, if advanced to Wiz 20/Sor 20 will still have a full complement of spells - both known and spells per day.

A question you didn't ask:
If you have a Wiz 10/Lor 10, acquiring any more Wiz levels is pointless. Your character is already at his maximum casting level (effectively Wiz 20), and all that remains of his class features after that (remember he no longer advances in BAB or Base Save) is a bonus wizard feat every 5 levels, and familiar advancement. This is one of the few things that is nice about a PrC that uses a separate advancement, instead of just granting a +1 effective level.

Finally, the rules officially say that you can only gain a epic PrC level when you are an epic character. Rog 5/Ass 11 is (officially) impossible. However, many people have house-ruled that restriction away, while prohibiting the character from gaining epic feats (i.e. feats he doesn't qualifiy for).

 

[Jolly Giant]

If you have a Wiz 10/Lor 10, acquiring any more Wiz levels is pointless. Your character is already at his maximum casting level (effectively Wiz 20), and all that remains of his class features after that (remember he no longer advances in BAB or Base Save) is a bonus wizard feat every 5 levels, and familiar advancement.

Not quite true. Your effective casterlevel continues to increase, and that's where the real benefit is! All effects that depend on level (range, duration, damage, etc. Ok, most damage spells cap out at some level or other, but there's a nice, little epic metamagic-feat that can help you with that.) still keep on increasing past level 20. More importantly, your increased casterlevel helps you beat that nasty SR so many epic characters and monsters have!

Finally, the rules officially say that you can only gain a epic PrC level when you are an epic character. Rog 5/Ass 11 is (officially) impossible. However, many people have house-ruled that restriction away, while prohibiting the character from gaining epic feats (i.e. feats he doesn't qualifiy for).

That restriction was overruled for my campaigns the same day I laid my hands on the ELH! I'd completely forgotten it even existed...

 

[GuardianLurker]

Yes, but I can get the effective caster level bump up by switching into *another* PrC. Wiz 10/Lor 10/Elemental Savant 1, for instance is more bang for the buck than Wiz 11/Lor 10.

 

[James McMurray]

Yep. From a power-gaming standpoint there is very little reason to ever get more than 5 or 6 levels of wizard, as there are usually prestige classes that fit the character, and those classes can be gotten at 6th+ level. The only time you'd want to continue past 5th as a wizard is if you're really interested in the item creation or metamagic feats, and even then you can probably find PrCs that give close to the same benefits, and with lots of other perks as well.