D&D (2024) Bard as 2/3 caster.

[Horwath]

bard as 2/3 spellcaster should get up to 7th level spells so it does not go behind too much
new spell levels at class levels: 1,4,7,10,13,16,19. for MCing 2/3rd of class levels, round UP.

maybe make Bard the ultimate dabbler and give access to ALL spells.
that removes spell secret from class features and opens it up for something else.
maybe extra feat slot or two for added versatility.

Lore bard can the get more spells, expertise in Arcana, Religion, Nature and History.

Valor can be for combat, as usual

Some rogue-ish subclass can get sneak attack at levels 3,6,10,14,18 plus some extra stealth/thieving/poisoning features.

 

[Ancalagon]

Unfortunately, the big problem that the "jack of all trades" runs into with 3e-/5e-style game design is that "somewhat less focused" = mostly sucks. I wish that weren't the case, but it is. Bards in 3.x work alright at E6 levels, maybe up to 7 or 8 at extremity, but beyond that? The chunkiness of class features just doesn't let it work.

A 2/3 caster falls behind by a spell level every three. So when the Wizard is getting fireball...and fireball is a worthwhile spell for the Wizard to cast...the 2/3 Bard is still stuck using 2nd level spells.

I'm not sure your analysis quite holds to be honest. The reason why is because low level spells work better in 5.X than they do in 3.x. In 3.X, a spell DC is dependent on the spell level and on the competence of the spell caster. So low level spells are easier to resist!

But in 5e, spell DCs are dependent on the competence of the caster, not the power of the spell. So even at high level, a web spell can be a meaningful control spell that has an impact on a battle, even though it's "just" a 2nd level spell.

I'm not happy with the magical power bards have in 5.X, esp in 5.5, where a bard with magical secret can pick and choose the best spells in the game.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

i tried putting together my own 2/3rds caster bard, thoughts?

BARD
-d8HD, -DEX and CHA save prof, -any 3 skills, -any 3 instruments, -disguise kit, -simple weapons, -light armour
Level 1
-bardic inspiration (d6), -weapon mastery (2)
Level 2
-spellcasting (cantrips, 1st level), -jack of all trades, -expertise (2)
Level 3
-[subclass feature], -psi-bolstered knack/psychic whispers (soulknife rogue(uses bardic inspiration)),
Level 4
-ASI, -primal order (druid(magician option uses CHA instead of WIS)), -half of font of inspiration (recover a bardic inspiration by expending a spell slot)
Level 5
-bardic inspiration (d8), -spellcasting (2nd level), -magical discoveries (2(lore bard)), -extra attack
Level 6
-[subclass feature], -starry form (stars druid, (archer form instead deals psychic damage+CHA mod, chalice form heals +CHA mod) (uses bardic inspiration))
Level 7
-countercharm, -fighting style
Level 8
-ASI, -spellcasting(3rd level)
Level 9
-expertise (4),
Level 10
-bardic inspiration(d10), -half of font of inspiration (recover expended uses on short/long rest), -magical secrets
Level 11
-spellcasting(4th level)
Level 12
-ASI,
Level 13
-
Level 14
-[subclass feature], spellcasting (5th level)
Level 15
-bardic inspiration(d12),
Level 16
-ASI,
Level 17
-spellcasting(6th level)
Level 18
-superior inspiration,
Level 19
-epic boon,
Level 20
-words of creation(1/rest, can cast power word: heal or kill by expending a bardic inspiration, can target a 2nd creature within 10ft)

*valor bard level 6 extra attack becomes a fighting style and 2 weapon masteries, ability to sub a cantrip for an attack remains.

Spoiler: spell progression

x cantrips 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1 -----x----x---x----x---x----x---x
2 -----2---2---x----x---x----x---x
3 -----2---2---x----x---x----x---x
4 -----2---3---x----x---x----x---x
5 -----3---3---1----x---x----x---x
6 -----3---4---1----x---x----x---x
7 -----3---4---2----x---x----x---x
8 -----3---4---2----1---x----x---x
9 -----3---4---2----1---x----x---x
10 ----4---4---3----2---x----x---x
11 ----4---4---3----2---1----x---x
12 ----4---4---3----2---1----x---x
13 ----4---4---3----3---2----x---x
14 ----4---4---3----3---2----1---x
15 ----4---4---3----3---2----1---x
16 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---x
17 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---1
18 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---1
19 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---1
20 ----4---4---3----3---3----2---2

I mean, it'd be the mechanically weakest class in D&D 5E by a very, very, very long way. Least effective in most situations, including social ones in a lot of cases. Also you're saying it's a 2/3rds caster, but why doesn't it get spells until level 2, when 1/2 casters get them at level 1?

I'm not sure your analysis quite holds to be honest.

It does, actually. Your reasoning doesn't make him incorrect. DC-based low-level spells work better in 5E than 3.XE, but a lot of spells aren't DC-centric, because they're primarily dealing damage, healing or another effect. Some even are worse in 5E, because they deal damage, but it's fixed (or scales with spell slot level), where in previous editions it would be based on caster level.

All you're actually saying is that CC spells, and absolutely nothing else, hold up better in 5E than they used to. Which is true. But many spells are not that, and it doesn't have the level of impact you're suggesting. Your example is funny, too - is Web even on the Bard spell list? It doesn't seem to be, unless I'm misreading.

The simple fact is, in 5E, if you don't have anything you're particularly good at, you are mechanically weak. The designs proposed in this thread are universally going to have less impact on almost every part of the game than not just the current Bard but also most other classes in the game! The one way I could see to make a less-magical Bard not just weak and ineffective would be to significantly boost Bardic Inspiration - give all Bards more of it, replenished more easily, and with more ways to apply it (rather than there being a very few, and then each subclass giving a couple more). Make it so the Bard is this really serious support class that can have a decisive impact in combat by handing out a ton of Bardic Inspiration (I'd also suggest making Cutting Words and similar baseline in this case).

Further, if you reduce their casting at all, just giving them access to all spells would be smart. Realistically it's not going to break anything, but it is going to mean they can get a bit more bang for their buck by picking actually-good spells.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Bards need to remain full casters in 5e; at least without VERY significant additional abilities to make up for it

The fact of the matter is that although bards were not full casters in previous editions, spell scaling was also significantly different. Spells often scaled based on caster level AND spell level rather than merely spell slot level. There was no concentration mechanic, so a variety of different buffs could be stacked on allies. Individual spell effects were often much more powerful: For example Dominate Person gave near unlimited control over a victim. Hold Person affected multiple targets in 2e and essentially guaranteed death if a single save was failed. Spells often affected more targets than in 5e.

Bards by edition:
1e - Spellcasting was based on the Druid spell list; at the levels these could be cast this made bardic spellcasting extremely weak in this edition. Partly to make up for this, bards had a chance to charm enemies an unlimited number of times per day...at a success rate that started out nonfunctional and eventually got moderately less frustrating. But charm was essentially mind control.

2e - Based on the Wizard spell list, meaning that the breadth of available spell types was vastly greater than in 5e. Bards could cast fireball, summon impenetrable walls of force

3e/3.5: Limited spell list, but many buffs could be layered on allies at the same time and bards had some of the best buffs available. Like Haste (which affected multiple allies). On top of this bards got a super-powerful inspiration (inspire courage) ability that would have destroyed bounded accuracy.

4e - I didn't play much 4e, and am unaware of what the 4e version was capable of.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

4e - I didn't play much 4e, and am unaware of what the 4e version was capable of.

4E's Bard was a Leader role class, with the Arcane theme, so were focused on helping their allies whilst controlling their enemies, which felt very Bard-y, and was mechanically extremely effective (most classes were in 4E, because constructing them around a role forced them to be). Just a very solid and effective class - easily as magical as the 5E version, but with a different vibe because in 4E magic wasn't constrained to spells with slots and levels.

 

[Horwath]

Unfortunately, the big problem that the "jack of all trades" runs into with 3e-/5e-style game design is that "somewhat less focused" = mostly sucks. I wish that weren't the case, but it is. Bards in 3.x work alright at E6 levels, maybe up to 7 or 8 at extremity, but beyond that? The chunkiness of class features just doesn't let it work.

A 2/3 caster falls behind by a spell level every three. So when the Wizard is getting fireball...and fireball is a worthwhile spell for the Wizard to cast...the 2/3 Bard is still stuck using 2nd level spells. But something that incremental can't be compensated by just getting all the strong features a Fighter would have, because then you're as good as a Fighter but also having double the spellcasting an Eldritch Knight would have. You're just stuck. With the way this game design style works, this effect compounds. Top-level 2/3rds Bards are just getting access to true seeing and mass suggestion (both things full-caster Wizards have been able to cast for six entire levels!) when Wizards are getting access to wish and time stop. And conversely, Fighters are narrowing in on four attacks per round (or two attacks + damage bonus feature, for Fighter-alikes like Paladin, Ranger, and Barbarian), while the Bard at best (as in, with a fighting subclass) languishes in 2 attacks with no other bonuses because any more bonuses would make them as good as an actual melee-focused class.

The lesson 3e taught us with Bards was that they have to be focused on something. They can augment that focus with breadth or depth, but they need to have something they're actually, directly good at all on its own. It's not that "jack of all trades" is a problem: it's that the "trades" only have two modes, too weak to carry a character, and too strong to be paired up with the other parts. In theory, the unique or semi-unique Bard features like Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, and Expertise should make up the gap....but they just don't. And, frankly, if they did make up the gap, people would complain that these features were either stupidly overpowered, or "mandatory" because of how dramatic an effect they have.


I mean, it produces exactly what you're asking for. A class that gets a taste of Fighter and some additional skill/combat bonuses (via Rogue) and only 2/3 casting progression. It's just that that package, in 5e design, is simply Not Very Good, and even if you recompiled this into a single class, it wouldn't get meaningfully better.

The only way I could see any of this working is if you make it so the subclasses actually do make you comparable to a (minimal, hard-to-optimize) baseline character class that IS focused on that. Effectively, your subclass is multiclassing without multiclassing: the Valor Bard is a minimal, stripped-down, unoptimized but still functional, Sword-and-Board Fighter with 2/3rds casting; the Lore Bard is a minimal, stripped-down, unoptimized but still functional, Wizard with no subclass features (because it actually boosts you to full spellcasting); the Dance Bard is a minimal, stripped-down, unoptimized but still functional, Monk with 2/3rds casting; etc. And even that sounds like it would be absolute hell to balance because 2/3rds casting is a huge power boost relative to even a subclass-free Monk or Fighter, even if you strip out most of their class features.

Bard can work as 2/3rd caster, but it needs abilities to focus on casting if that is preference of the character.

I.E: bonus feats similar to warlock invocations:
then you can pick Extra attacks, extra skills, extra expertise, extra usages or new usages of Inspiration.
As for extra magic, let's steal and modify warlocks mystic arcanum:

Mystic arcanum 1, requires Bard level 2
you learn one 1st level spell and gain one 1st level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 2, requires Bard level 3, Mystic arcanum 1
you learn one 2nd level spell and gain one 2nd level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 3, requires Bard level 5, Mystic arcanum 2
you learn one 1st level spell and gain one 1st level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 4, requires Bard level 7, Mystic arcanum 3
you learn one 4th level spell and gain one 4th level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 5, requires Bard level 9, Mystic arcanum 4
you learn one 5th level spell and gain one 5th level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 6, requires Bard level 11, Mystic arcanum 5
you learn one 6th level spell and gain one 6th level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 7, requires Bard level 13, Mystic arcanum 6
you learn one 7th level spell and gain one 7th level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 8, requires Bard level 15, Mystic arcanum 7
you learn one 8th level spell and gain one 8th level spell slot.

Mystic arcanum 9, requires Bard level 17, Mystic arcanum 8
you learn one 9th level spell and gain one 9th level spell slot.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I mean, it'd be the mechanically weakest class in D&D 5E by a very, very, very long way. Least effective in most situations, including social ones in a lot of cases. Also you're saying it's a 2/3rds caster, but why doesn't it get spells until level 2, when 1/2 casters get them at level 1?

it's spellcasting is delayed to 2nd mostly because that's how OP chose to implement it harkening back to AD&D. (plus there are no 2/3rd casters to base it off in 5th)

you say it's weak, but what would you say is the greatest point of failure in my design(other than as you say in the other half of your post 'if you don't have anything you're particularly good at, you are mechanically weak')? and how would you fix it? how much would it help if spellcasting kicked in at 1st and the rest of the spell progression all got bumped up one level accordingly, and it got the full font of inspiriation at 4th rather than short rest bardic inspiration recovery being held back to 10th, i'd throw in another magical discoveries at 2nd too because while i don't like the idea of them having full access between wizard, cleric and druid lists alongside their own i do think they should be able to dip a little more.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm not sure your analysis quite holds to be honest. The reason why is because low level spells work better in 5.X than they do in 3.x. In 3.X, a spell DC is dependent on the spell level and on the competence of the spell caster. So low level spells are easier to resist!

But in 5e, spell DCs are dependent on the competence of the caster, not the power of the spell. So even at high level, a web spell can be a meaningful control spell that has an impact on a battle, even though it's "just" a 2nd level spell.

I'm not happy with the magical power bards have in 5.X, esp in 5.5, where a bard with magical secret can pick and choose the best spells in the game.

I am still not seeing how the new magical secrets is a big upgrade over the old one... actually it is more limiting than before because you can't take any spell you like. Before you got 6 spells of any school. Arguably, you could get the best spells anyway if you wanted. Including paladin and ranger and warlock spells.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

it's spellcasting is delayed to 2nd mostly because that's how OP chose to implement it harkening back to AD&D. (plus there are no 2/3rd casters to base it off in 5th)

you say it's weak, but what would you say is the greatest point of failure in my design(other than as you say in the other half of your post 'if you don't have anything you're particularly good at, you are mechanically weak')? and how would you fix it? how much would it help if spellcasting kicked in at 1st and the rest of the spell progression all got bumped up one level accordingly, and it got the full font of inspiriation at 4th rather than short rest bardic inspiration recovery being held back to 10th, i'd throw in another magical discoveries at 2nd too because while i don't like the idea of them having full access between wizard, cleric and druid lists alongside their own i do think they should be able to dip a little more.

Maybe bards could just get an origin feat at level 2? Could be phrased: gain magical adept or a different orogon feat of their choice.

Would also allow them to take healer. Or skilled.

 

[Horwath]

I am still not seeing how the new magical secrets is a big upgrade over the old one... actually it is more limiting than before because you can't take any spell you like. Before you got 6 spells of any school. Arguably, you could get the best spells anyway if you wanted. Including paladin and ranger and warlock spells.

they wanted rangers, paladins and warlocks to have their cool special class features, but all those features ended coded as spells...