D&D (2024) Rules Clarification: Epic Boon at 19th Class Level or Total Character Level?

[abirdcall]

I think this the relevant rule:

Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Barbarian levels 8, 12, and 16.

As long as you are (character) level 19 you can take the epic boon. Notice that this rule specifies the class while the epic boon prerequisite doesn't.

Cantrips gain potency at higher levels. They don't specify the class. The thing that allows multiclass characters to gain the bonus before reaching those class levels is the part in the multiclass rules that specify it.

There is no such rule for feats.

 

[abirdcall]

It's an interesting edge case.

If someone is playing "organically" they would have to forgo a feat for several levels to do this, it's a big tradeoff actually.

The exploit is if the adventure is a high level one shot or otherwise starting at high level. You get 2 boons without that cost.

That said there IS a cost, if you multi class to do this, you don't get a class capstone level 20, that's a big sacrifice.

Especially if it IS a continuing high level campaign. The single class will eventually get the capstone and multiple boons. The multiclass will never get the capstone.

Looking at the capstones though, the capstones ALSO don't have any reference to specific class level. So that puts things back to being unclear. Clearly the capstones don't apply to multiclasses.

It's ambiguous, I think I'd allow it (just so everyone gets the epic boon) but they could really clear that up.

I agree that it is ambiguous.

For me it is the wonkiness that one 15/4 character has an epic boon while the other does not that makes me hate it. That, and I believe a strict reading of the rules also does not allow it.

People who multiclass either do so just looking at theme and end up with a weak character or pick up special abilities from the first couple levels that combo well with their main class. In the latter case I can certainly see a character having fewer than 4 levels in the secondary class when reaching high level. Also, after level 11 levelling is designed to speed up so those last couple levels go by quickly.

Either way, I'm not terribly interested in which specific 'build' is optimal to go this route, I just hate it from both a design point of view and what it encourages players to do. But then, I also hate multiclassing in general so I don't actually have a horse in this race.

 

[Hatmatter]

Cantrips gain potency at higher levels. They don't specify the class. The thing that allows multiclass characters to gain the bonus before reaching those class levels is the part in the multiclass rules that specify it.

There is no such rule for feats.

I appreciate your thoughts and contributions here, Ad Hoc. For clarification, when you write, "The thing that allows multiclass characters to gain the bonus before reaching those class levels is the part in the multiclass rules that specify it," are you referencing this from page 44 of the 2024 PHB (which, I believe, is identical to the 2014 rule): "If a cantrip of yours increases in power at higher levels, the increase is based on your total character level, not your level in a particular class, unless the spell says otherwise"?

I think I understand your thinking and the basis for your interpretation.

I think this one is a great question for Jeremy Crawford and Sage Advice as it is perplexing.

Reasons to Interpret that at 19th total character level (example, a level 15/4 character taking an Epic Boon Feat) one can take the Epic Boon Feat:

• D&D Beyond permits it when it otherwise does not permit rules variations or homebrew without stamping a character as made in this way (Chaltab). The problem with this is that it is suggestive, not authoritative because D&D Beyond is an application/program.
• "Abilities that require a certain level in a class specify it. For example, the warlock powers that require a certain level don't say level 5+, they say level 5+ warlock" (Mort). The important corollary with this is that on page 210-211 in the 2024 PHB, all of the Epic Boon Feats specify "Prerequisite: Level 19+" not "Class Level 19+." Related to, and supporting this, is John L's observation that Elf Traits specify "character level" but the Elf Lineages table on page 190 shortens this to "Level."
• The wording in each of the 12 "Class Features" sections specifies the class level for Ability Score Improvements/Feats but the class level is not specified for the Epic Boon at Level 19 (John Lloyd). But, we should not forget that the ability to acquire an Epic Boon Feat at Level 19 always occurs within the context of a class Features table and text explaining class Features; therefore, one could argue that it is implied that Level 19 must be a character's class level.

Reasons to Interpret that only at 19th class level one can take the Epic Boon Feat (meaning any character with more than. a 1-level dip in another class would have to wait until 21st-level to acquire an Epic Boon Feat):

• The acquisition of the ability to acquire an Epic Boon Feat only occurs within the context of the table and text explaining class Features (Clint L).
• The Multiclassing rules on 44-45 of the 2024 PHB do not address whether Epic Boon Feats use total character level or class level, and this would be the place where it would be addressed if it was total character level (Ad Hoc).
• Ad Hoc's aesthetic objection that if 19th level is interpreted as total character level, then some multiclassed characters might never acquire an Epic Boon Feat and a 15/4 level character advancing to 16/20 would actually acquire two Epic Boon Feats. Of course, some might counter that this is not game-breaking and is reasonable compensation for a multiclass character missing out on a 20th-level capstone Feature.

In reading everyone's contributions here and thinking about it, I am stumped.

Aesthetically, the more I think about it, I am actually finding myself in very much the opposite position of Ad Hoc. Missing out on capstone Features is a big sacrifice for high-level characters (or, in my case, I frequently make NPCs as if they were PCs). So, acquiring an Epic Boon Feat (or two in the 15/4 character example advancing to 16/4) is nice for those characters; I would even regard it (at this point) as an improvement over 2014 multiclassing. I do not think it is game breaking.

Further, in looking at Class Features for level 4 characters, there is never an advancement in spell level casting at level 4, nor is there an advancement in spell level casting in the Multiclass Spellcasting table on page 44 of the 2024 PHB, meaning most spellcasters simply receive one additional spell slot at that level; so a multiclassed 15/4 character receiving an Epic Boon or a 16/4 character receiving a second Epic Boon, are not really gaining much from their class level progressions at that point. Further, class Features are minimal for all the classes at that level. So, why not receive even a second Epic Boon?

But that opinion does not pertain to the interpretation of the rules, which seem ambiguous.

 

[abirdcall]

Yes, the multiclass rules specify that the unspecified "level" requirements of cantrips apply to total levels for multiclass characters but they don't specify that this is true of feat prerequisites.

A point in favour of it is that multiclassing is complicated but the multiclassing rules are only 2 pages long plus the "as a multiclass character" section at the beginning of each class. One can infer then that they didn't have the space to specify these sorts of things.

A point against it is that multiclassing is lopsided. The tradeoff to gaining the low level abilities of other classes that make great combos with another class is that you don't get high level features of your main class.

Gaining extra epic boons isn't going to help out the person who wants to make a multiclassed character for thematic reasons because that character is already terrible and probably discarded by that point. So all it helps is the person who has figured out the combo that makes them stronger and then they get even stronger.

If you are creating NPC characters using PC rules then you are locking yourself into an unnecessary box and that probably shouldn't be considered when evaluating the rules as you are effectively house ruling NPCs.

 

[Hatmatter]

Yes, the multiclass rules specify that the unspecified "level" requirements of cantrips apply to total levels for multiclass characters but they don't specify that this is true of feat prerequisites.

A point in favour of it is that multiclassing is complicated but the multiclassing rules are only 2 pages long plus the "as a multiclass character" section at the beginning of each class. One can infer then that they didn't have the space to specify these sorts of things.

A point against it is that multiclassing is lopsided. The tradeoff to gaining the low level abilities of other classes that make great combos with another class is that you don't get high level features of your main class.

Gaining extra epic boons isn't going to help out the person who wants to make a multiclassed character for thematic reasons because that character is already terrible and probably discarded by that point. So all it helps is the person who has figured out the combo that makes them stronger and then they get even stronger.

If you are creating NPC characters using PC rules then you are locking yourself into an unnecessary box and that probably shouldn't be considered when evaluating the rules as you are effectively house ruling NPCs.

Thanks Ad Hoc. I think I follow everything except this: "If you are creating NPC characters using PC rules then you are locking yourself into an unnecessary box and that probably shouldn't be considered when evaluating the rules as you are effectively house ruling NPCs."

My post here is simply to understand how the rules work with regard to Epic Boon Feats. I do not understand what relevance it has for whether I am making a PC I am going to play (I don't any more as it turns out, I am pretty much always the DM now) or an NPC if I should choose to use the PC character creation rules for an NPC? The purpose for the character is a little beside the point, maybe I simply should not have mentioned it as it is extraneous information that may have thrown you off. I am simply trying to understand the 2024 rules changes with this post here.

Also, I am not sure I understand what you mean by "that character is already terrible"...I think you mean the character is not powerful? Most of my NPCs I make I attempt to make as interesting characters and if they are adversaries, then I have the freedom to make them any level I want in order to present a challenge to characters. But, honestly, most of our time at our table is role-playing and there is not a lot of combat. But, again, I'm probably bombarding you with too much information.

Thanks for helping out, Ad Hoc!

 

[abirdcall]

Because of how the tier system works in 5e doing even (or near even) splits for multiclassing results in a very weak character.

A level 4/4 character is level 8 and doesn't even have a 2nd attack or 3rd level spells.

The same is true for character combinations that don't have powers that get stronger when used with another class. A level 4 barbarian/4 fighter would be awful to play.

 

[FarBeyondC]

It's not really all that complex.

1. The feats section explicitly tells you that you can pick feats from any category if categories aren't specified.

2. The Ability Score Improvement feature doesn't specify a category, thus you can pick from any category (Origin, General, Fighting Style, Epic Boon, or anything else in the future that doesn't have explicit rules preventing it).

3. Level on its own almost always refers to character level. Class levels are only relevant to the very few features that explicitly mention them, and spell levels are obvious to determine from context.

4. Whether intentionally or otherwise, the epic boon feat prerequisites do not prevent level 19+ multiclassed characters from choosing one at any point they're given a feat choice that allows it. They could have easily made the prerequisite (Prerequisite: Epic Boon Feature) if that was the case.

 

[Hatmatter]

It's not really all that complex.

1. The feats section explicitly tells you that you can pick feats from any category if categories aren't specified.

2. The Ability Score Improvement feature doesn't specify a category, thus you can pick from any category (Origin, General, Fighting Style, Epic Boon, or anything else in the future that doesn't have explicit rules preventing it).

3. Level on its own almost always refers to character level. Class levels are only relevant to the very few features that explicitly mention them, and spell levels are obvious to determine from context.

4. Whether intentionally or otherwise, the epic boon feat prerequisites do not prevent level 19+ multiclassed characters from choosing one at any point they're given a feat choice that allows it. They could have easily made the prerequisite (Prerequisite: Epic Boon Feature) if that was the case.

Thanks, Far Beyond. If that is the general consensus here, I can run with it.

 

[abirdcall]

It's not really all that complex.

1. The feats section explicitly tells you that you can pick feats from any category if categories aren't specified.

2. The Ability Score Improvement feature doesn't specify a category, thus you can pick from any category (Origin, General, Fighting Style, Epic Boon, or anything else in the future that doesn't have explicit rules preventing it).

3. Level on its own almost always refers to character level. Class levels are only relevant to the very few features that explicitly mention them, and spell levels are obvious to determine from context.

4. Whether intentionally or otherwise, the epic boon feat prerequisites do not prevent level 19+ multiclassed characters from choosing one at any point they're given a feat choice that allows it. They could have easily made the prerequisite (Prerequisite: Epic Boon Feature) if that was the case.

If level on its own refers to character level then why does multiclassing have a rule that allows cantrips to upscale with character level?

 

[Mort]

Because of how the tier system works in 5e doing even (or near even) splits for multiclassing results in a very weak character.

A level 4/4 character is level 8 and doesn't even have a 2nd attack or 3rd level spells.

The same is true for character combinations that don't have powers that get stronger when used with another class. A level 4 barbarian/4 fighter would be awful to play.

The multiclasses system, as it is, IS very difficult to balance. You can easily end up with a way underpowered character (such as your example).

On the other hand, you can have a very good combination. Minor change to your above character fighter 6/barbarian 4, works amazingly well.

For better or worse, multiclassing relies on system mastery.