D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[codo]

That's because you're assuming the Fighter/Monk/Warlock is without fault. How do you know they're not going nova every encounter and then whining about needing to rest?

How dare a short rest class wants to actually use their abilities! The Gall! We have had 2 encounters and the Warlock cast a spell in both encounter? No more spells for you today, because we are under a time crunch. Don't like it? Well you should have though of that before you played a Warlock.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I am sorry, but I think D&D should try to support as many different playstyles and pace of adventuring day as possible.

okay I said I was leaving but this condisending bit brought me back then I am logging out...

you just said it should support as amany diffrent, but it does NOW, pact magic warlock works for me but the other 11 classes work for you... you aren't asking to fit both of us you want the 1 class that works so well we sometimes see 2 in the same campagin changed to fit the way YOU play with the other classes when you get 11 other classes.

fitting the most would be if we have 12 classes 6 be my way and 6 yours, or maybe 3 be your way 3 be my way and 6 be somewhere inbetweem... you want all 12 your way.

 

[Charlaquin]

is it just me or is the "just go away" the new normal here?

D&D is a big-tent game, so lots of the people under the tent have interests and desires that are incompatible with those of other people under the tent. When the game can’t do something that appeals to you without losing other people to whom it doesn’t appeal, it’s easy to fall into thinking the game would do better to just, not cater to those people.

 

[DnD Warlord]

is it just me or is the "just go away" the new normal here?

It is not new.

'Go play something else' is as tired a meme as 'badwrongfun' and 'that's your opinion'.

I am trying to figure out how to discuss things civil here, and I see this more and more.

 

[billd91]

It's not really about being non-cooperative. It's about evaluating and balancing the risk of taking a rest -- which technically isn't always there, but essentially it always is a consideration in the players' minds -- against the risk of that one PC not having abilities in future encounters.

The player playing a short-rest-limited class chose that class, knowing how it operates. They also chose to spend their abilities the way they did. It's not right that the rest of the table should bear the cost of the short-rest PC's shortsightedness. Nor should they encourage that shortsighted behavior by always bearing that burden after every encounter, which is precisely what you'd be encouraging. We're back at the problem that the game mechanically rewards players for constantly resting, and the primary reason not to do so is narrative (NPCs responding to the PCs, or time pressure).

See, the proper use of short rest resources is to, you know, use them and then take a short rest. It's not short-sighted at all. And that's where we've got the issue of being non-cooperative. You're focusing on things from the long rest recovery perspective only and chiding the short resters for blowing their resources too fast when that's exactly the pace they're supposed to be keeping and the long resters should accept and respect - if they're really grokking the cooperative game dynamic.

 

[renbot]

Is it too late to recreate the 3.5 warlock? I just reviewed in online and remembered how much I loved it. A highly magical PC that operated differently from everything we had seen before. And it would have been so EASY to recreate for 5E.

Sigh. Wishcasting over.

 

[Bacon Bits]

How dare a short rest class wants to actually use their abilities! The Gall! We have had 2 encounters and the Warlock cast a spell in both encounter? No more spells for you today, because we are under a time crunch. Don't like it? Well you should have though of that before you played a Warlock.

So then whatever the Fighter/Warlock/Monk wants is just? There can never be a situation where players of short-rest classes want to do something unreasonable or unfair? They always act rightly and nobly, without error or misjudgment, and should always be forgiven and given allowances, even unto the failure of the adventure, lest they endure even one encounter without their full capabilities? We could continue to the docks before the ship holding the hostages leaves port, but, no, the Warlock needs her spells.

See? I can be hyperbolic and unrealistic, too.

Stop imagining that everyone who disagrees with you is doing so out of dishonesty or injustice or a desire to personally injure you.

 

[Vael]

Is it too late to recreate the 3.5 warlock? I just reviewed in online and remembered how much I loved it. A highly magical PC that operated differently from everything we had seen before. And it would have been so EASY to recreate for 5E.

Sigh. Wishcasting over.

Theoretically, but you might be disappointed with it. This is all old memory, so take with a grain of salt, but IIRC, the 3.5 Warlock was designed around ... Once a Wizard/Sorcerer has 5th level spells, for example, 2nd level spells are effectively unlimited for them. Sure, they expend those spell slots, but the main power of those casters was their top 2 to 3 levels of spells they could cast. So if a 9th level Wizard treats 2nd level spells as an unlimited resource, than there's no problem giving the same to a Warlock. Which explains how Warlocks gain at will spells.

Unfortunately, 5e doesn't really make that same assumption, or more to the point, 5e casters are far more limited in their upper tier spell slots and so use their lower level spells more frequently and also run out of them more. So I'm not sure the base assumptions line up properly. Look at the number of spell slots a 3.5 Wizard has, with bonus spells from high casting stats, compared to a 5e Wizard. It's a big difference.

 

[Remathilis]

I disagree that the DM controls short rests. They can make short rests risky, but it is ultimately the PCs who decide to rest or not to rest.

The issue is when time is of the essence or there is no option to rest safely. WotC just put out a book of Heists. Are you going to stop and rest an hour in the middle of Revel's End? Just pull up a cell and wait for lunch? Or the cultists sacrificing the royal at midnight? The flooding dungeon escape? The hobgoblin fortress on high alert because someone woke the guard? Time is never important? Monsters just wait until after your Union break?

Or do you just assume we all just dungeon crawl with rope trick prepped so that we can rest whenever we want?

 

[codo]

So then whatever the Fighter/Warlock/Monk wants is just? There can never be a situation where players of short-rest classes want to do something unreasonable or unfair? They always act rightly and nobly, without error or misjudgment, and should always be forgiven and given allowances, even unto the failure of the adventure, lest they endure even one encounter without their full capabilities? We could continue to the docks before the ship holding the hostages leaves port, but, no, the Warlock needs her spells.

See? I can be hyperbolic and unrealistic, too.

Stop imagining that everyone who disagrees with you is doing so out of dishonesty or injustice or a desire to personally injure you.

I am not saying that what the short rest classes want is "just". I am saying the that the way the system is designed allows and even encourages conflict and argument between different players based on their classes recharge rate of abilities, or their preferred playstyle is a bad thing and should be changed. The fact that the game is structed in a way that you can even blaming players for playing their characters wrong is the problem.

When 5e first came out I liked that classes had different refresh rates. More class variety is a good thing. As I played more however, I came to realize that having different refresh rates for different classes is really more trouble than it is worth. Different refresh rates works well if you use a certain playstyle and have a very specific pace.(At least 3 or 4 adventures a day with 1 or 2 short rests per day) However the game breaks downs and can cause interparty conflict and hurt feelings if your game has a different pace to it.

The way I see it their are two solutions to the problem. You either use use variable refresh rates for players and force all groups to use a similar pacing for the adventure day, or all players use a similar refresh rate and you allow different groups to use different paces and have as many or as few encounters per day as the would like.

When it comes down to it, and D&D is forced to choose between having more character options and allowing a wider variety of playstyles, I will go with more playstyles any day. This is D&D after all. It is trying to be a game for everyone, not just one specific playstyle.