I'm still confused (epic & spells)

[Voadam]

I don't own the epic book but from what's been posted and what I read in the store, after 20th level caster level you go up in caster level but no more spell progression. loremaster and others increase your previous spell casting abilities on a 1/1 level or at a slower rate. It would make sense that when your 5 sorcerer 10 battlemage (where the battlemage increases spellcasting at 1/1) presumably 5 something else, gains a level of epic battlemage it will increase both caster level to 16 and spell casting (spells per day and spells learned) to 16 (because it is still under caster level 20). That would make sense to me but I don't have a rules reference for you.

Whether you can go sorcerer 5 battlemage 10 then take epic battlemage 11 at 16th level I don't know.

 

[kreynolds]

No, I'm not joking, but thanks for asking.

Oh. My bad. I was pretty sure you were joking. Sorry.

 

[Clefton Twain]

Oops

Oh. My bad. I was pretty sure you were joking. Sorry.

No problem. I know it kinda sounds like a dumb question because it's so hard to explain. Sorry I kinda jumped down your throat.

--CT

 

[novyet]

Whether you can go sorcerer 5 battlemage 10 then take epic battlemage 11 at 16th level I don't know.

That would be a no.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Oops

No problem. I know it kinda sounds like a dumb question because it's so hard to explain.

It's not that hard to explain.

Sorry I kinda jumped down your throat.

Nah. You didn't jump down my throat. I tend to come across as a pretty big a$$, so I won't hold your response against you at all.

Basically, once your casting class hits epic level (20 for core classes, 10 for prestige classes, 5 for prestige classes if you sleep with your DM), you no longer automatically get more spells per day if you're a wizard, though you do gain 2 spells known of any level you can cast. If you're a sorcerer or bard, you don't get anything.

However, in all cases, your caster level continues to increase.

Also, you can be a Wizard 20/Cleric 20/Bard 20. What does this mean? It means that you will have the max spell progression of all three classes. When you hit character level 20, your spell progressions don't stop. Spell progressions only stop when you hit 20th class level.

Hope that helps.

 

[drquestion]

kreynold's response is right, but i thought i'd add a little extra. if you're progessing in epic levels as a spellcasting class, your spellcasting abilities continue to increase at the same rate as they did in the 1st 10 levels of the class (assuming that you weren't just getting +1/level)

e.g., if you were getting +1 level of spellcasting ability at every even level (like the spellsword prestige class, for example), you'd continue to get +1 at every even epic level, until you maxed out at level 20. after that, you wouldn't gain anymore spells per day, but you'd get +1 caster level at every even level. for examples of this see the ELH web enhancement that wizards put up.

this is kind of an odd 1st post, but it seemed like there still might have been some confusion.

drquestion

 

[Clefton Twain]

So I said "Well, Mr. President, get THIS..."

Oy! After looking at the epic web supplement it seems that some prestige classes *do* indeed get spells after 10th. And I was trying to find a pattern (whether they only got spells if they got +1 existing class every level or whatnot) but I can't. The Loremaster gets spells just like the classes in the web enhancement yet it doesn't get spells past 10th.

The Divine Agent and Arcane Trickster are just two of these classes.

The phrasing is "The (prestige class's) number of spells per day increases until his caster level reaches 20."

I really truly think I'm going insane.

--CT

 

[drquestion]

i think that the loremaster probably should continue to get +1 level of spells per day each level until he maxes out at 20th, but you're right that it doesn't seem to imply this in the ELH. It's possible that they're just assuming that the loremaster is already going to be maxed out in terms of spells per day - this would indeed be the case with the loremasters that i've seen in actual play.

note that the prestige classes that explicitly do not increase in spells per day after 10th level are all like the assasin - they have their own progression that doesn't build off that of a previous class.

drquestion

 

[Clefton Twain]

Clefton Twain

And then, to make matters worse, check out the "Epic Insights" feature on WotC's page...NO prestige classes in this web supplement advance beyond 10th as far as gaining spells...and the article specifically states that NONE of them ever will.

--CT (thoroughly boggled)

 

[drquestion]

CT - my interpretation of the material at the epic insights page, as well as the loremaster class would be that these classes, when taken into epic level will continue to give +1 caster level and to give extra spells per day, up to 20th level in the original class - this being a function of the original class's caster level.

The part about not learning new spells means that the character does not get the 2 new, free spells per level that a wizard gets from levels 1-20, even if the character hasn't achieved 20th caster level by the time he reaches epic levels. This is what the spell knowledge epic feat is aimed at - gaining new spells known, not new spells per day.

for sorcerers, it's a little more ambiguous, but i would say that their spells known still increase up to 20th level, and then max out, as these are also a function of caster level. the ambiguity here might be caused by the fact that it's basically impossible for a sorcerer to qualify for the loremaster class, so the designers of the ELH added the bit about not learning any new spells in reference to wizards, clerics, etc. who take loremaster, not really thinking about sorcerers. then, the loremaster text was simply copied for the prestige classes at the Epic Insights page without paying attention to the fact that some of those classes can be taken by sorcerers

the web enhancement clearly states that the spellcasting classes therein do continue to gain spells per day at their previous rate, until they max out at 20th, and since it was written by Andy Collins, who also did the ELH, i'd take that as a model.

drquestion