I'm still confused (epic & spells)

[Clefton Twain]

Alright, I really need guidance.

The Loremaster's progression in the ELH states that it doesn't continue to gain spells once it becomes an epic class. The assassin and the blackguard are the same way.

So is the only way to gain a normal spell progression after you are epic level (assuming you're not a 20th level caster) to continue in a base caster class (sor, wiz, clr, drd)?

In other words, my character has two levels of sorcerer and 5 levels of a spellcasting prestige class (a class we call battlemage). He's 15th level right now. If he takes the last 5 levels in battlemage and decides to continue this class beyond 20th level, does he get spells until he's a 20th level caster?

He'd only be a 12th level caster by the time he hits 20th level but only 2 levels would be in a core caster class.

I'm totally confused.

--CT

 

[Crothian]

From spellcaster levels 1-20 you use the chart in the PHB for the class that applies to you. It doesn't matter what classes or character level you are. Once you reach 20th caster level your spells per day (and spells know if a bard or sorcerer) are maxed out. The only way to increase them are through feats, epic feats, and raising one's attribute.

 

[Clefton Twain]

From spellcaster levels 1-20 you use the chart in the PHB for the class that applies to you. It doesn't matter what classes or character level you are. Once you reach 20th caster level your spells per day (and spells know if a bard or sorcerer) are maxed out. The only way to increase them are through feats, epic feats, and raising one's attribute.

Does anyone know where the book says this? I see so much contradictory information in the book that I just can't figure out when you get spells and when you don't. I know the core caster classes will continue with spells until they are a 20th level caster but it looks to me that the prestige classes don't.

I see a section that says "For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 20th level...However, your spells per day don't increase after 20th level" which leads me to believe that you *do* get spells. However, all the prestige classes they show epic progressions for do *not* get spells. I think this is where my confusion lies.

--CT

 

[kreynolds]

I see a section that says "For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 20th level...However, your spells per day don't increase after 20th level" which leads me to believe that you *do* get spells.

This confuses you? Are you joking?

-- "occasionally ashamed of the human race" kreynolds --

 

[Clefton Twain]

This confuses you? Are you joking?

-- "occasionally ashamed of the human race" kreynolds --

No, I'm not joking, but thanks for asking.

Read the epic classes like the Loremaster, for example. It says "the loremaster does not learn additional spells unless she selects the Spell Knowlege feat."

So if I have 13 levels of Loremaster but my caster level is not yet 20th, why doesn't the Loremaster get any additional spells (as stated in the ELH)?

So, then, if it's so obvious, why doesn't she get them? I asked a simple question, I don't expect a snide remark.

--CT

 

[smetzger]

I see a section that says "For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 20th level...However, your spells per day don't increase after 20th level" which leads me to believe that you *do* get spells. However, all the prestige classes they show epic progressions for do *not* get spells. I think this is where my confusion lies.

--CT

Not sure what you mean by 'get spells'. Caster Level has nothing to do with the ability to cast more spells per day. You only get more spells per day by tacking the feat. I also, do not believe that you get to automatically get to put 2 more spells in your spell book every level (if your a Wizard), once you go epic.

 

[Clefton Twain]

Hmmm

So, basically, then, after you hit *character* level 20, you're done with normal spell progression? I guess I was just getting "20th level" confused with caster level of 20.

--CT

 

[Henry]

No, when you hit the maximum class level for a class (20 for the eleven base classes, and 10 for the prestige classes), you have NO MORE additional spell slots per day, outside of feats or ability score bonuses. I think you really are getting character level and class leve confused in this section.

Your character and class level can infinitely progress, but the only things that can be mapped out in these progressions are things that have regular progressions directly based on level. (Examples that come to mind are sneak attack, damage reduction for barbarians, etc.) Spell casting, as irregular as it was, is by the epic rules SHUT off at 20th level (10th for prestige classes). After that, you must have spell knowledge to get additional KNOWN spells (this feat is every good for sorcerers, not so much for wizards), or you must have Improved Spell Capacity for additional slots first time you take it, you get one 10th level slot for metamagicing high-level spells; the second time you take it, you get an 11th level slot, etc. - it is spelled out in the feat).

I hope this helps somewhat. Just keep in mind that when you hit 20th level of spellcasting ability for a base class, you stop right there, short of feats or high ability scores.

One additional question: does your battlemeage class add spellcasting levels to a base class, or does it have its own progression?

 

[Caliber]

I think his question is really something like this. He is a Sorceror 5. He has 10 levels in Battlemage. He currently casts as a 15th level Sorceror.

Now lets assume hes in Epic levels somehow (maybe he took some Fighter.)

Would he have to take additional levels in Sorceror to finish up the Sorceror spells per day chart? Or can he advance as an Epic Battlemage and finish it up this way?

To put it another way, if a 10 Wiz/10 PrC without full caster advancement reaches Epic Levels, can they advance in the PrC to finish out their Spells per day, or do they have to take the last couple of Wizard levels?

 

[Clefton Twain]

Whoohoo!

I think his question is really something like this. He is a Sorceror 5. He has 10 levels in Battlemage. He currently casts as a 15th level Sorceror.

Now lets assume hes in Epic levels somehow (maybe he took some Fighter.)

Would he have to take additional levels in Sorceror to finish up the Sorceror spells per day chart? Or can he advance as an Epic Battlemage and finish it up this way?

To put it another way, if a 10 Wiz/10 PrC without full caster advancement reaches Epic Levels, can they advance in the PrC to finish out their Spells per day, or do they have to take the last couple of Wizard levels?

Yes yes yes! Finally someone understands! (actually, Henry's first paragraph shows that he seems to understand what I'm saying, too).

Battlemage progresses just like a sorcerer or wizard. You get spells every level at +1 spellcasting class level.

So, judging from Henry's response: 10-level prestige classes max out at 10th level in regards to spell progression.

But there also seems to be disagreement on this from others (Crothian, for example) who say that it doesn't matter and that you max out at *caster* level 20, period.

So I hope that explains my confusion. Now, since there are differing opinions, has anyone seen any piece of text (or official statement) stating one way or another?

Thanks!

--CT (very relieved that someone finally understands the question)