D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +

[Reynard]

In truth, neither am I.

But it would give Wizardly types a tradeoff of being utility-focused with some AoE damage ability and lesser single-target capability, making fighters/rogues/etc better at single-target.

Which in 4e helped to reign in some of the Caster/Martial arguments. They didn't -entirely- vanish... but it helped.

I guess it probably has a lot to do with the balance of combat vs exploration in people's games. In very combat focused campaigns, folks probably put more weight on the wizard's damage output. Buy in more exploration focused games, the wizard's utility really displays their power relative to other characters.

 

[Lanefan]

The main enjoyment of playing a wizard is you get to blow stuff up.

Their blow-stuff-up schtick is the last thing I'd nerf...never mind it's already been nerfed a bit from earlier editions by not having the damage automatically scale with level.

 

[Horwath]

I disagree. I think Wizards and Sorcerers and such should be able to do really crazy wild cool stuff.

I think their strict damage output should be curtailed. Let them do the weird stuff and travel massive distances in the blink of an eye, and trade it off for combat-capability. Lower overall damage, leave the utility intact, but make them solid at spreading moderate damage over a wide area to eliminate large numbers of minions or wound mid-level opponents.

I'm sorry, but I really believe that you are barking at the wrong tree.

Utility/crowd control are game breaking spells, both for the effect that they do when targets fail their save and with the fact that saving throw exists.
It's either huge effect or nothing and lost action/spell slot.
that is why everyone and their mothers take Silvery barbs, simply because it's really not fun to get your only 5th level spell slot per day be canceled just because DM rolled lucky and you just did nothing with your character for the combat.

Damage is just damage, and fireball is really not impressive damage considering how limiting is per day.

Every DM is happy when 5th level wizard/sorcerer take fireball instead of hypnotic pattern.

if every wizard is decked out with almost all damage spells with maybe added invisibility and misty step and no crowd control, we would not be having this tread at all.

 

[CreamCloud0]

personally the low damage/high utility + moderate battlefield control wizard is a design concept that appeals as a solution, if you want a high damage blaster caster then i think that's something you can give the sorcerer to do to help differentiate the two

 

[Steampunkette]

I'm sorry, but I really believe that you are barking at the wrong tree.

Utility/crowd control are game breaking spells, both for the effect that they do when targets fail their save and with the fact that saving throw exists.
It's either huge effect or nothing and lost action/spell slot.
that is why everyone and their mothers take Silvery barbs, simply because it's really not fun to get your only 5th level spell slot per day be canceled just because DM rolled lucky and you just did nothing with your character for the combat.

Damage is just damage, and fireball is really not impressive damage considering how limiting is per day.

Every DM is happy when 5th level wizard/sorcerer take fireball instead of hypnotic pattern.

if every wizard is decked out with almost all damage spells with maybe added invisibility and misty step and no crowd control, we would not be having this tread at all.

Hypnotic Pattern is great 'til someone pokes the Wizard with a pointy stick and breaks the effect on everyone who failed. Same with most crowd control effects. Because the more people in the effect the higher the odds someone doesn't get caught or subsequently gets out of it. Meanwhile a Fireball always deals at least half damage which is more than a fighter can throw out with a single swing of a greatsword, much less hitting 12 people within a 20ft radius burst. (Granted, Fire resistance happens, but there's ways -around- resistance akin to wielding a magic greatsword at this point)

You can go on and on about how a fighter can "Keep swinging all day" but with a caster present the fighter doesn't -have- to.

Spellcasting is also a two-way street. There's a reason "Geek the Mage" is a powerful and well known phrase among TTRPG Players. Players, like DMs, hate having their characters shut down by powerful magic. And while you could go through and make another "Softening" pass of all the dangerous spells in the game, you could instead work on an actual problem: The fact that a wizard enemy can not only shut down part of the party, but simultaneously slap every member of the party for a fistful of dice that blows a martial's combat round's worth of damage dealing out of the water.

That said, Silvery Barbs is definitely broken and never should've made it through submission, much less edits.

 

[Remathilis]

I disagree. I think Wizards and Sorcerers and such should be able to do really crazy wild cool stuff.

I think their strict damage output should be curtailed. Let them do the weird stuff and travel massive distances in the blink of an eye, and trade it off for combat-capability. Lower overall damage, leave the utility intact, but make them solid at spreading moderate damage over a wide area to eliminate large numbers of minions or wound mid-level opponents.

Direct damage spells are already the suckers option. A we'll played wizard focuses on ending fights by removing the bad guys options to fight. At low level, casting levitate on a foe and having the team pelt it with arrows is a far better use of a 2nd level slot than acid arrow or scorching ray. Haste is the most damaging 3td level spell besides fireball. Wall of force prevents more damage than any abjuration and you get miles more utility out of conjuring creatures, animating objects or even animate dead. That's all before you get the fight ending spells like forcecage. And for spellcasting enemies, there is counter spell.

Couple that with instantaneous travel, the ability to move undetected, to safely scout an entire dungeon, and simulacrum shenanigans, the worst thing you can use your spell slots on xd6 damage.

And that's part of the problem.

 

[Steampunkette]

Direct damage spells are already the suckers option. A we'll played wizard focuses on ending fights by removing the bad guys options to fight. At low level, casting levitate on a foe and having the team pelt it with arrows is a far better use of a 2nd level slot than acid arrow or scorching ray. Haste is the most damaging 3td level spell besides fireball. Wall of force prevents more damage than any abjuration and you get miles more utility out of conjuring creatures, animating objects or even animate dead. That's all before you get the fight ending spells like forcecage. And for spellcasting enemies, there is counter spell.

Couple that with instantaneous travel, the ability to move undetected, to safely scout an entire dungeon, and simulacrum shenanigans, the worst thing you can use your spell slots on xd6 damage.

And that's part of the problem.

I like how you qualified Haste as the most damaging 3rd level spell -besides- Fireball.

And hey, Levitate -can- shut down a single enemy that uses exclusively melee attacks but also...

Poke the Wizard with a pointy stick. ESPECIALLY at level 3/4 when Levitate becomes available. Also maybe try to include ranged damage capabilities for your NPCs. Even if it's just an improvised weapon like a rock you can break that concentration pretty easily.

Haste, similarly, stick-poking. And then watch whoever got Hasted suck wind for a round instead of doing anything useful. ESPECIALLY aggravating to your party members if the stick poking happens after Haste is cast but before they get to benefit from it.

Wall of Force, though. Also Ice or Fire. And Stone. REALLY good spells to change the shape of the battlefield and force enemies to move rather than take actions in order to delay their damage dealing on the party. That's a good thing and should probably be part of the focus of the Wizard...

Of course firing off a Cone of Cold to hit up to 78 enemies for 8d8 each... But then, why choose between the two?

Round 1: Wall of Force to make the enemy cluster on the one side of the pass you left open for them to approach.
Round 2: Cone of Cold to wipe out scads of the enemy where they had to cluster to try and get around your Wall of Force.

Or, y'know, Fireball if you wanna conserve high level spell slots and the damage falloff isn't -too- bothersome, though that's gonna depend on the specific enemy type. 24 fire or 36 cold on average still knocks out about half the HP of a typical CR 3 enemy. And if they're in large enough numbers to fire off big AoE they're far more likely to be CR 2 or 1 where 24-36 drops them to their knees or kills them outright.

Of course if it's a -single- enemy and you're throwing up a Wall of Force you're either trying to get away or giving your party some breathing room to use healing... 'Cause otherwise you've just screwed your martials and other casters up on -their- turns trying to attack the enemy...

But in that situation? Counterspell is also an option. For the enemy. On you. Because, again, it's a two way street.

And, of course, you could instead make it a Wall of Fire instead of Force and make however many enemies are there take 5d8 if they're next to it, 5d8 more if they pass through it, and 5d8 more if they end their turn near it. Also only a 4th level slot and still breaks line of sight/effect. And -then- you drop Cone of Cold. Because you don't have to choose between doing damage or controlling the field, you get to do -both-.

But, y'know. YMMV based on the situation the point is they can do both as it stands and since one is concentration they can't stack a ton of -that- specific kind of spell as active at once, but can maintain one -and- do a boatload of damage beside it.

BECAUSE THAT'S THE POINT. You don't have to pick 'Either' unless casting Wall of Force instantly ends the encounter. You can pick BOTH.

Yes, a Wizard who fills up all their prepared spells with damaging spells is a fool. Because you can use the same damaging spells a LOT. So having 2-3 "Good" damaging spells that cover single target and AoE damage is really all you need (on top of, say, 1 or 2 damaging cantrips) and you fill the rest of your spell slots with cool effects like Wall of Force or Silvery Barbs or Counterspell or Dispel Magic. Because you can do -both-. You're not limited to one or the other and they synergize REALLY WELL if you've got any clue of what you're doing.

The question is: Do you want Wall of Force and Counterspell and Dispel Magic and Clone and stuff to be spells that exist or do you want Wizards to just be really good at dealing damage? 'Cause, really, those are your choices unless you decide to cap the game off at level 10 or something similar, which is an annoyingly common direction for people to want to go.

... also Wall of Force should never "Instantly End the Encounter". Even if you wind up putting the dome over a single powerful enemy it should just be a delaying action, really. 'Cause within the next minute or whatever that dome is going to come down. Either because you and your party are 'ready' to fight the BBEG who has been monologuing for the last 10 rounds from inside the dome, or because one or several of his minions worked together to Geek the Mage and brought the dome down.

MAYBE it can be a "Run Away" spell, but if you're dropping a 6th level spell to drop a cup on a spider before fleeing then it's probably -really- good you had the cup.

 

[Remathilis]

I like how you qualified Haste as the most damaging 3rd level spell -besides- Fireball.

And hey, Levitate -can- shut down a single enemy that uses exclusively melee attacks but also...

Poke the Wizard with a pointy stick. ESPECIALLY at level 3/4 when Levitate becomes available. Also maybe try to include ranged damage capabilities for your NPCs. Even if it's just an improvised weapon like a rock you can break that concentration pretty easily.

Haste, similarly, stick-poking. And then watch whoever got Hasted suck wind for a round instead of doing anything useful. ESPECIALLY aggravating to your party members if the stick poking happens after Haste is cast but before they get to benefit from it.

Wall of Force, though. Also Ice or Fire. And Stone. REALLY good spells to change the shape of the battlefield and force enemies to move rather than take actions in order to delay their damage dealing on the party. That's a good thing and should probably be part of the focus of the Wizard...

Of course firing off a Cone of Cold to hit up to 78 enemies for 8d8 each... But then, why choose between the two?

Round 1: Wall of Force to make the enemy cluster on the one side of the pass you left open for them to approach.
Round 2: Cone of Cold to wipe out scads of the enemy where they had to cluster to try and get around your Wall of Force.

Or, y'know, Fireball if you wanna conserve high level spell slots and the damage falloff isn't -too- bothersome, though that's gonna depend on the specific enemy type. 24 fire or 36 cold on average still knocks out about half the HP of a typical CR 3 enemy. And if they're in large enough numbers to fire off big AoE they're far more likely to be CR 2 or 1 where 24-36 drops them to their knees or kills them outright.

Of course if it's a -single- enemy and you're throwing up a Wall of Force you're either trying to get away or giving your party some breathing room to use healing... 'Cause otherwise you've just screwed your martials and other casters up on -their- turns trying to attack the enemy...

But in that situation? Counterspell is also an option. For the enemy. On you. Because, again, it's a two way street.

And, of course, you could instead make it a Wall of Fire instead of Force and make however many enemies are there take 5d8 if they're next to it, 5d8 more if they pass through it, and 5d8 more if they end their turn near it. Also only a 4th level slot and still breaks line of sight/effect. And -then- you drop Cone of Cold. Because you don't have to choose between doing damage or controlling the field, you get to do -both-.

But, y'know. YMMV based on the situation the point is they can do both as it stands and since one is concentration they can't stack a ton of -that- specific kind of spell as active at once, but can maintain one -and- do a boatload of damage beside it.

BECAUSE THAT'S THE POINT. You don't have to pick 'Either' unless casting Wall of Force instantly ends the encounter. You can pick BOTH.

Yes, a Wizard who fills up all their prepared spells with damaging spells is a fool. Because you can use the same damaging spells a LOT. So having 2-3 "Good" damaging spells that cover single target and AoE damage is really all you need (on top of, say, 1 or 2 damaging cantrips) and you fill the rest of your spell slots with cool effects like Wall of Force or Silvery Barbs or Counterspell or Dispel Magic. Because you can do -both-. You're not limited to one or the other and they synergize REALLY WELL if you've got any clue of what you're doing.

The question is: Do you want Wall of Force and Counterspell and Dispel Magic and Clone and stuff to be spells that exist or do you want Wizards to just be really good at dealing damage? 'Cause, really, those are your choices unless you decide to cap the game off at level 10 or something similar, which is an annoyingly common direction for people to want to go.

... also Wall of Force should never "Instantly End the Encounter". Even if you wind up putting the dome over a single powerful enemy it should just be a delaying action, really. 'Cause within the next minute or whatever that dome is going to come down. Either because you and your party are 'ready' to fight the BBEG who has been monologuing for the last 10 rounds from inside the dome, or because one or several of his minions worked together to Geek the Mage and brought the dome down.

MAYBE it can be a "Run Away" spell, but if you're dropping a 6th level spell to drop a cup on a spider before fleeing then it's probably -really- good you had the cup.

Why waste a spell slot to trap and burn your enemies when you have free damage every round from this little thing called YOUR ALLIES. You're the fighter, go fight them! Which is why Haste is second best damage spell at that level; your fighter's third attack per round deals far more DoT than fireball does in a round. And as for the pointy-stick problem, any well-respected wizard has Proficiency in Con saves and/or War Caster, and there is this annoying spell called NOPE! (I'm sorry, SHIELD) that makes breaking concentration annoyingly difficult (though admittedly, not impossible).

Wall of Force (and most trap/delay spells) are used to isolate and concentrate force on enemies. Separate a boss from his minions while you gang up on him. Isolate a caster and make them waste rounds dealing no damage while they deal with it. The goal is to make the enemy waste actions dealing with your BS instead of doing damage to you and your allies. Its a smart play. If you throw a fireball, then the monster's hp goes down and they open up their full attack on the party. Behind a wall of force, they watch helplessly as their minions get slaughtered and then when the wall goes down has to deal with all the PCs getting their undivided attention focused on them.

I would like to raise direct damage so that it has some control alongside the damage, and I'd like to make pure control a little easier to handle by making less of them binary. Currently, the counterplay to magic is too specific for most monsters to handle and the tools specifically used to counter them (such as Counterspell) are rather unfun to rely on encounter after encounter.

 

[Steampunkette]

Why waste a spell slot to trap and burn your enemies when you have free damage every round from this little thing called YOUR ALLIES. You're the fighter, go fight them! Which is why Haste is second best damage spell at that level; your fighter's third attack per round deals far more DoT than fireball does in a round. And as for the pointy-stick problem, any well-respected wizard has Proficiency in Con saves and/or War Caster, and there is this annoying spell called NOPE! (I'm sorry, SHIELD) that makes breaking concentration annoyingly difficult (though admittedly, not impossible).

Wall of Force (and most trap/delay spells) are used to isolate and concentrate force on enemies. Separate a boss from his minions while you gang up on him. Isolate a caster and make them waste rounds dealing no damage while they deal with it. The goal is to make the enemy waste actions dealing with your BS instead of doing damage to you and your allies. Its a smart play. If you throw a fireball, then the monster's hp goes down and they open up their full attack on the party. Behind a wall of force, they watch helplessly as their minions get slaughtered and then when the wall goes down has to deal with all the PCs getting their undivided attention focused on them.

I would like to raise direct damage so that it has some control alongside the damage, and I'd like to make pure control a little easier to handle by making less of them binary. Currently, the counterplay to magic is too specific for most monsters to handle and the tools specifically used to counter them (such as Counterspell) are rather unfun to rely on encounter after encounter.

Yay! The Wizard casts Haste! And then... does... what? 'Cause the fight typically doesn't end in 1 round. Round two, Fireball. Or Cone of Cold or Magic Missile if you wanna insult your target, or whatever.

Because it's not one or the other it is BOTH.

Making Wizards do even more damage on the turns they spend dealing damage will not help balance the game unless you nerf all the OTHER spells into the freaking dirt.

As far as "Making them less binary" there's no such thing. If someone casts Slow on you, you either fail the save and are slowed or pass the save and aren't slowed. Making a "Less Slowed" option for failing the save still makes it binary. Slowed or "Lightly Slowed" is still binary.
Even if you change the target phenomenon to something other than a saving throw there's still only two outcomes.

The core function of D&D and most TTRPGs is roll dice to determine a binary proposition. Either you made the Athletics Check or you didn't. Either you hit the goblin or you didn't. Either you made your save or you didn't.

You -could- create a third layer of "Well if you roll better than DC+5 it doesn't have any effect at all!" or "If you fail by more than 5 it has an even harder effect" but that just requires an extra 4 seconds of asking questions and complicates the spell to minimal benefit for anyone.
And the more complexity you add to determining whether a spell has taken effect, or how heavily it has taken effect, just makes things take longer.

There are a few games like Daggerheart where success or failure also provides an additional piece of information (Hope/Fear), which could be useful... but you'd be adding that complexity into the game and making things take longer to resolve.

And if there's anything that takes too long to resolve, already, it's the Wizard's turn in combat.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I guess it probably has a lot to do with the balance of combat vs exploration in people's games. In very combat focused campaigns, folks probably put more weight on the wizard's damage output. Buy in more exploration focused games, the wizard's utility really displays their power relative to other characters.

I think the fact that they don't need damage output where everyone else does is more the issue.