D&D 5E wis Warlocks and con Sorcerers

[Stormonu]

This is more a theoretical "what-if" than an actual desire to change either of these classes. But with having both the Warlock and Sorcerer (and Bard...) currently using Charisma as their prime casting requirement, what sort of effect on play would there be if we switched one (or both) off using Charisma as their casting ability?

In the case of Warlocks, what if Wisdom was their primary casting ability? Where Clerics are driven by their unshakable faith (Will) in a god, the Warlock instead is the master of "common sense" in understanding the contract between them and a supernatural entity - not the letter of the law (which would be Int), but the intent and ways to manipulate it to their benefit. The warlock knows the ins and outs of how to manipulate that "binding oath" between the two to drawn on magical power for their own use. There might be some secondary knock-on effects of "faith in the contract" or the patron, but likely not to the level of a cleric. What knock-on game effects would this have on mechanics and play? What sort of story side elements could be brought in on this?

As for Sorcerers, what if Constitution became their primary casting ability? As vessels and conduits of innate magic, the strength of their body (their vessel) directly relates to their ability to draw on and harness magical power and wield it without burning themselves out. As above, what effects would this have on mechanics and story for the Sorcerer?

In the Sorcerer's case, I think one minor side effect might be that multiclassing Barbarian/Sorcerer might be more appealing and to some degree fitting story elements of the mixing of the two.

 

[Vael]

I highly dislike using Constitution as a casting stat. Tried it playing the Battlemind in 4e and I've come to the conclusion that Constitution is a defensive stat and shouldn't be used for attacking or spellcasting. Player Characters are already heavily motivated to have a decent Constitution, so they don't fail those crucial partisanship checks ;-) and I'm not really into using it as a casting stat. Even my attempts to reimagine Incarnum generally involve moving to a mental stat for casting.

For me, the manipulation of magic has to have a mental component, so while I'm indifferent to which mental stat is required, I don't use Constitution.

 

[cbwjm]

I don't generally think it's a big issue moving caster stats around, I normally keep it within the mental stats but all con is really going to do is boost HP and help with concentration checks, I don't really think that's a bad thing.

Some different multiclass combos will make themselves known, like barbarian/sorcerer, but others will likely disappear, warlock/paladin might be less desirable for instance.

Side note, I've thought of making Warlock Int based as an occultist studying forbidden magic rather than making a pact for it. And I did have an idea for a loremaster bard who was also Int based played as a magical detective.

 

[ezo]

As for Sorcerers, what if Constitution became their primary casting ability? As vessels and conduits of innate magic, the strength of their body (their vessel) directly relates to their ability to draw on and harness magical power and wield it without burning themselves out. As above, what effects would this have on mechanics and story for the Sorcerer?

We switched Sorcerers to CON-based casting years ago. It works great. They have crap HD, so it helps there a lot obviously. Also, it helps with Concentration checks.

Thematically as you say it just makes sense as well. I highly recommend it!

 

[MarkB]

I don't think it made the final cut, but at least one playtest version of the warlock had the option to choose between charisma and either wisdom or intelligence for spellcasting depending upon subclass.

 

[ezo]

All-in-all, here's our current break-down:

Bard: choose INT, WIS, or CHA. It's good to be a bard.
Cleric: CHA
Druid: WIS
Paladin: CHA
Ranger: WIS
Sorcerer: CON
Warlock: INT
Wizard: INT

Clercis become CHA-based casters! (Just like Paladins...). This is because CHA represents conviciton, which is the belief required by the gods for clerics. For paladins, it is conviction in their oath.

Warlocks use INT because they have to be logical in understanding the pact -- think lawyer or something -- you really better know what you're getting into.

Also, like @cbwjm says is an option.

Side note, I've thought of making Warlock Int based as an occultist studying forbidden magic rather than making a pact for it.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think wisdom sorcerer actually makes the most thematic sense, as the sorcerer has a subconscious understanding of flows of magic. Plus, sorcerers are often weirdos or goofballs; that is a lot more consistent with wisdom than charisma. Leave the sneaky stuff to the bards and warlocks and the intimidation to paladins and warlocks.

I have a hard time deciding between intelligence and charisma for warlocks. The skills associated with charisma seem like a good fit for the prototypical warlock, but then I wonder why someone with good charisma needs to make deals with dangerous things to get ahead in life. On the other hand, outside of the association with wizards there is nothing that suggests intelligence is associated with a strong work ethic. Smart and lazy or smart and frustrated that hard work isn't paying off seem like good story baselines for the warlock.

 

[g00se99994]

I don't think its balanced to have a caster who isn't MAD in relation to caster ability and concentration checks. I'd vote to leave everything alone.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I've done Cleric and Wizard using INT, WIS, or CHA depending on their domain/school before as well. Arcana and Knowledge Clerics used INT for example, while Enchantment Wizards used CHA. So on and so forth. It all went fine for our table and game. No issues. So swapping Warlock and Sorcerer should work fine too.

But in every case... try it out at your table, tell your players it is being playtested and might change, see if it works fine, and if it does keep it or if it doesn't, revert it.

 

[steeldragons]

I have long been a proponent of a Wis based warlock given the exterior/imbuing power source making them, to my mind, much more sensibly treated as "Arcane-entity powered clerics/paladins" than "Entity deal-making/invoking wizards" (and the plain fact that D&D went a bit nuts with assigning classes to Charisma for some reason).

The Con based sorcerer is a little tougher sell, I think. I mean, I get it. Like, how it would make sense - the physical endurance needed to "evoke" and control your "inner magic." So, I get it. There's just something about using a physical ability as a primary casting ability that gives me pause.