D&D (2024) Will Pact Magic survive?

[Pauln6]

I’d give the ability to regain 1 slot as an action at level 5, pb/lr. I’ve proposed a third slot at 5 and people generally felt it was wildly OP. While I disagree, regaining a slot without resting is similar to the wizards arcane recovery in theme, and gives a little more freedom.

Tying this up with confirmation that warlock slots can't be used for spell points or smites would probably keep a lid on it.

 

[Remathilis]

Tying this up with confirmation that warlock slots can't be used for spell points or smites would probably keep a lid on it.

It would put an end to multiclass abuses. It does little to fix other problems. But at the very least it's a band-aid.

 

[Pauln6]

It would put an end to multiclass abuses. It does little to fix other problems. But at the very least it's a band-aid.

I suppose it's difficult if there is no consensus on what are the other problems.

I prefer little tweaks to major overhauls. I'm not interested in learning another edition. I'm getting too old!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Tying this up with confirmation that warlock slots can't be used for spell points or smites would probably keep a lid on it.

The objections I’ve seen were more that some warlock spells are too powerful to have more often than 2/sr.

 

[mellored]

The objections I’ve seen were more that some warlock spells are too powerful to have more often than 2/sr.

Sounds like those spells need the nerf then. Because wizards would be able to cast them more than 2/sr.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sounds like those spells need the nerf then. Because wizards would be able to cast them more than 2/sr.

At level 5 a wizard can’t cast 3rd levels spells more than 2/SR, I’m fairly certain.

Checked and yeah, with arcane recovery, assuming 2 short rests per day, the wizard can cast up to 4 3rd level spells at level 5 and 6.

A warlock with 3 slots would be able to cast thier spells all at 3rd level 6 times.

 

[Pauln6]

At level 5 a wizard can’t cast 3rd levels spells more than 2/SR, I’m fairly certain.

Checked and yeah, with arcane recovery, assuming 2 short rests per day, the wizard can cast up to 4 3rd level spells at level 5 and 6.

A warlock with 3 slots would be able to cast thier spells all at 3rd level 6 times.

Is that really a problem though? Surely it's just a variation between classes?

 

[Remathilis]

I suppose it's difficult if there is no consensus on what are the other problems.

I prefer little tweaks to major overhauls. I'm not interested in learning another edition. I'm getting too old!

What it comes down to is people tolerating a badly designed mechanic for the sake of its novelty. But I think we can reach some consensus on the pros and cons at least

Pro:

• Unique mechanic distinguishes it from other casters
• Limited spell slots encourage creative use
• Big nova potential

Cons:

• Unique mechanic can be complicated to move to/from other casters, especially for new players
• Doesn't play nice with multi-classing, including abusive uses of other classes features
• Limited uses at max power discourages utility magic or nonscaling effects and guides towards nova use
• Highly dependent on DM giving short rests, so much so their power level fluctuates wildly depending on how often you get them.

For me, none of the pros outweigh the cons. So even patching the multi-classing drawback still leaves me with a system that encourages me to save my slots to drop my highest level effects at boss fights.

Maybe if they can fix pact magic so that it's more intuitive for new players, isn't dependent on short rests, isn't prone to multi-class abuse and doesn't prioritize upscaling fireball over using shield, I'd be ok with it. But any such fix will either come at rewriting pact magic anyway or bending other rules around it to make it work. IMHO, neither of these solutions are as simple or elegant as just using the existing spell system every other caster in the PHB uses.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Is that really a problem though? Surely it's just a variation between classes?

Like I said upthread, I disagree with the conclusion that it’s OP.

 

[Pauln6]

What it comes down to is people tolerating a badly designed mechanic for the sake of its novelty. But I think we can reach some consensus on the pros and cons at least

Pro:

• Unique mechanic distinguishes it from other casters
• Limited spell slots encourage creative use
• Big nova potential

Cons:

• Unique mechanic can be complicated to move to/from other casters, especially for new players
• Doesn't play nice with multi-classing, including abusive uses of other classes features
• Limited uses at max power discourages utility magic or nonscaling effects and guides towards nova use
• Highly dependent on DM giving short rests, so much so their power level fluctuates wildly depending on how often you get them.

For me, none of the pros outweigh the cons. So even patching the multi-classing drawback still leaves me with a system that encourages me to save my slots to drop my highest level effects at boss fights.

Maybe if they can fix pact magic so that it's more intuitive for new players, isn't dependent on short rests, isn't prone to multi-class abuse and doesn't prioritize upscaling fireball over using shield, I'd be ok with it. But any such fix will either come at rewriting pact magic anyway or bending other rules around it to make it work. IMHO, neither of these solutions are as simple or elegant as just using the existing spell system every other caster in the PHB uses.

Very good analysis. We also have to consider that if warlocks are granted access to all spells on the arcane list, that could be a game changer in terms of balance.

Warlock utility magic tends to be invocation based but I struggled to get mileage from at will silent image. Fun but rarely useful.

I suppose they could put a hard cap on spell slot uses per day to limit short rest abuse? Or something akin to a daily cap with an arcane recovery mechanic for some short rest regains?

It would be nice if some utility options were tied to the pacts.