D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[ECMO3]

So if they don't do anything cool? If they ignore a ton of other class features? Like my aforementioned Shadow Monks never casting any of their spells that cost Ki.

On no, at high level you have ki for that stuff too, while also having an essentially permanent dodge. As I noted if you only dodge every single turn you will have PLENTY of ki left over by the time your rest. That :"plenty" is ki you can use for lots of other fun stuff.

Another exemple of 'do the efficient thing and not the FUN thing'.

It may not be fun for you, but it is fun for me and many players of all classes take ASIs instead of feats. Monks have less room for feats at low levels than other classes do the mechanics concerned with their class, but there is imbalance across all the classes in that respect.

While I am on it though, I will point out that full spell casters are also more reliant on ASIs at early levels than Fighters or Rogues are, yet no one seems to point at that as a weakness of casters or suggest that only Fighters and Rogues can do "the FUN thing.

So we've established that FOB is bad and Step of the Wind is underpowered compared to Patient Defense. So the Monk is essentially full of Trap Options (Nobody likes 4 Elements Monk) and you're telling me it's NOT a stupid design??

FOB is not a powerful ability and I think people would enjoy the class more if it was not available as the players that enjoy the class the most rarely use it and those that I have seen complain about the class in play use it often and those that complain about the class on message boards think it is a good use of ki.

Every class has poor abilities, I would not call them traps but they are mechanically inferior to other available options.

The fact that out of three basic things you can do with Ki, only one is actually good, is a pretty bad design if you ask me.

Please update yourself on the Monk class abilities if you are going to make substantive posts. There are 12 different abilities the basic Monk class can use ki points for, not counting subclass abilities.

Of those 12:
4 are generally very strong (Ki fueled attack*, Stunning Strike, Patient Defense, Diamond Soul)
4 are situationally strong (Focused Aim, Astral Projection, Invisibility, Step of the Wind-Dash)
1 is generally good (Quickened Healing)
2 are mediocre (Step of the Wind-Disengage, Deflect Missiles-attack)
1 is weak (FOB)

This list does not include the things your ki gives you that you do not need to use ki points to do (Ki-empowered Strikes, Purity of Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon, Timeless Body)

* Note you don't actually spend ki points on Ki-fueled attack insefl, but you have to have spent it on something else (anything else) during your turn so it is something you do with ki points.

 

[James Gasik]

In fairness, I have a lot of 3e/PF1e experience, having played 3e from when it first came out. It's a system I love, but it's not without it's flaws. On the topic of buffing, while it can be very powerful, I noticed in my games that players often have problems knowing when to buff and when to act. Many times I saw fights where someone said "I should have cast that buff spell" and equally many times were the fights where someone was like "so wait, it's over? I still have 55 combat rounds left on that spell!", knowing full well that the spell could very well be over before there was another encounter.

Often, my groups would not have a caster dedicated to buffs if I was running. When I played, I would either focus on crowd control/debuffs or buffs for the party, and the experience was like night and day, but it didn't change how other people played, lol.

And to be fair, knowing when and how to buff is difficult even for experienced players, which is why my last 3.5 character was a Cleric (ab)using Divine Metamagic to provide the party with all-day buffs. Which eventually killed the game, because it didn't matter how poorly my team operated or how strange their builds were, the numbers I was giving them let them muddle through even epic battles.

When we took on a CR 17 at level 9, the DM finally threw in the towel- he'd been running published adventures and didn't have the experience to know how to adjust for a party that was frequently operating as if 2-3 levels higher than they actually were!

He even remarked that it was strange the rest of the party didn't think I did much (because, to be fair, outside of emergency healing in combat, most of my turns were spent using my Reserve Feat), when in reality, I was the glue that kept them going. And I'd told him straight up what I was going to do, and got his approval, but as he said, in retrospect, he had no idea how powerful buffs could be when you always have them.

And when he tried to have enemies dispel my buffs, he found that was a miserable use of enemy actions- they might get lucky and strip something away, but do no real damage to the party, which demoralized him (never no mind that taking away +3 to AC or +4 to attacks/saves was a huge blow).

TLDR: buffing in 3e is complicated. Depending on player skill and circumstances, it can range from a waste of time to absolutely back-breaking for creating balanced encounters.

 

[ECMO3]

I think you mean "Not forgoing", as that means to not do something.

No I mean forgo - you forgo patient defense, as in you don't do Patient Defense in order to use martial arts or Ki-Fueled Attack as a bonus action. That is often a good choice. Using FOB rarely is though.

FOB can be stronger or weaker depending on level, but as you go up the numbers go up and even then we're talking about a game of damage. The Monk has defensive options, but the best one is to not be there when things are going down, in which case sometimes Disengage can be the play, but also simply running away and taking a single hit can be enough, especially when high-level monks can have enough speed to outpace a lot of foes.

Yes but FOB is not enough extra damage to matter very often. FOB is based on martial arts dice which don't scale fast enough to have a single attack make much of a difference, especially when Ki-fueled attack is almost always going to do more damage than a martial arts attack. Like I said at 20th level FOB is about 7-8 points more damage than just doing martial arts. More often then not the enemy you were attacking is going to die on the exact same turn he was going to die on if you did not use FOB.

Disengage is usually worse than Patient Defense or Dash for the "not be there" use case. It is generally rare that Disengage is better than one of the other two options. A Monk has high movement, but not enough to move into melee range and then move out of melee range to the point where the enemy can't reach them. To do this effectively round after round they will need an obstacle or they will need to use dash. Even when they do have enough to do it, it presumes the enemy does not have ranged attacks or other enemies are not going to be able to attack the Monk.

IME if you are going to be backing out of melee with a Monk it is usually (not always) better to use Dash or Dodge and take the AOO then it is going to be to use Disengage. The reason is dash or dodge will give you more protection against future attacks in the vast majority of cases.

Yeah, but that's a risk with anything. You use Patient Defense and someone hits you through your dodge, does that suddenly negate the strategy of the move? It's always a risk that what you do doesn't work, so trying to frame on the idea that it doesn't work misses the return on when it does, especially with multiple chances. Stunning strike has game-changing returns.

Yes it is a risk, but mathematically giving you a 4th opportunity to stun an enemy is not likely to be game changing.

Stunning Strike is game changing but having 2 weapon attacks plus 2 martial arts attacks with 4 stunning strike opportunities is generally not going to be game changing compared to having 3 weapon attacks with 3 stunning strike opportunities, especially when you consider it is 3 ki vs 5 ki.

Yeah, but all those can work with Flurry of Blows. If you cast Hex, Flurry of Blows is great because more potential hits means more potential damage through the Hex die, and as an added bonus you can get knock-on effects for certain subclasses/styles: Hex on the Open Hand Monk with Flurry of Blows is awesome because once Hexed I can use it to knock them down by giving them Disadvantage on Athletics or Acrobatics checks (since Shoves are a check and not a save).

Forced movement with WOH substantially buffs FOB and on such a character I would not be as down on it. I have not played this subclass personally but I question the utility of Hex generally in such a combination because of bonus action economy.

Patient Defense might beat those actions, but again we are talking about high-level enemies typically with very large to-hit bonuses. Dodge becomes less useful as you pass the modified AC10 threshold. This isn't to say that it isn't good, but I'm not sure it's nearly as automatic as you make it out to be. I find that in 5E, people get hit way more than they don't even with Disadvantage, and with lower hit points it's not necessarily a sure thing.

It does become less useful, but your static AC is going up as well, whch compensates some.

This isn't that, I'm simply pointing out the power through very basic synergy. The effects of Stunned are absolutely massive and while you can try to write it off as situational, the stuff I'm mentioning is pretty common party teamwork.

They do, but IME that type of teamwork is generally going to drive you away from FOB, not towards it. At low levels you want to save ki for things that are more effective (like stunning strike). At high levels when you have a lot of ki you are usually going to want to do something else with your bonus action and you often have a bad ass magic weapon that you are going to want to use instead of using martial arts.

Like, if I'm calculating this right (you're taking the average damage and then multiplying it by the likelihood of hitting, correct?)

For the Dragon yes, for the Monk no; I am considering unlimited ki, which means the Monk hits on a 2 with focused aim.

Remember also this is with a weak weapon for the level. With a good weapon and the damage is going to get closer. Give her something like a Staff of Striking or a Flame Tongue (and a different Dragon) and the damage can actually go down using FOB.

You put 4 attempts in there and they're either wasting Legendaries or (if they are down one or two) you might well stun them. It could fail, but I'm not going to be doing 20 rounds of dodging, especially against a BBEG.

None of these examples will last even 20 rounds. The guy doing FOB is burning on 3.1 ki per turn on average, the guy using patient defense is burning 1.9 ki per turn average. That is only using focused aim, and FOB or patient defense.

Not considering focused aim or legendaries the chance of stunning a red dragonon 2 attacks with a +1 monk weapon plus two martial arts attacks is 53%, the chance on 3 attacks with a +1 weapon is 46%. That is hardly groundbreaking. If you consider legendaries, and he has them all, the chance of doing it with FOB is 0.08% or 8 times in 10000 combats.

And this is just a white-box with no other party members in support.

This is exactly the case, although this is a weak enemy for 20th level characters. Put the other PCs in there and FOB becomes even less impressive as the extra damage becomes even less relevant.

With 20th level characters that Dragon will often die in one round and almost always die in 2 rounds. Your use of FOB is extremely unlikely to change that and is unlikely to even change the turn it does die on. On the other hand using FOB will cost you more both in ki and in hps than dodging, so I fail to see how that is better for the party.

And that last part is really part of the value of FOB and other things: if you are alone, then dodging is more optimal because you are taking all the fire. But with 3 other party members there, that won't be the case. We shouldn't simply look at it like that when we assess the value of FOB.

See I think this is backwards. With other party members there the minimal damage you get from FOB is usually irrelevant. Almost always irrelevant in fact when you compare it to ki-fueled attack or martial arts niether of which cost any ki.

That is my biggest problem with FOB, it is not effective use of ki. Dodging might not be either for a specific situation, but just because you can't dodge does not make FOB more effective.

Yes, but it's hardly a tank, either. The monk is more of a striker hybrid, someone who has interesting defense options but is still very vulnerable to being hit even if they don't want to be. At the end it's causing decent enough damage with its hits, but more than that are the things it can do around those hits.

The Monk is a poor striker IMO. They are a good tank when they want to tank and they are a good (arguably the best) controller among non-casters.

Everyone is vulnerable to being hit, Monk is less vulnerable than other classes when they don't want to be hit.

I mean, that would depend on the Monk, wouldn't it? Drunken Masters naturally get a Disengage with their FOB. Open Hand their push/trip tied to their FOB. More than that, the way the Ki Pool is built is uneven across different subclasses to where it's easy for certain subclasses to Nova effectively while a few others are really ki-dependent (hello, Way of the 4 Elements).

I am looking at the class options, if you start talking about individual subclasses things change quite a bit.

While DM, OH and Astral Self all have subclass abilities that enhance FOB quite a bit and TBH make it a better use of ki. Others though for the most part have another good use of Ki that make it even less valuable in comparison.

For example you talk about taking unwanted hits above. A Long Death Monk can burn ki to stay above 0hp, so in addition to dodging she can't die as long as she has 1 ki left.

Again, this is why I wanted to move away from large pools, make more actions just actions and save big flashy things for spending a more limited resource so that spending ki was something special rather than something automatic. Spending the few early points you have on dodging instead of anything else is not exactly a stirring defense of the class and I'd say that it's already costed well as taking away other Bonus Actions. Same with Disengage. Hell, at this point I feel like you've successfully argued that for Flurry of Blows!

Martial arts as a bonus action is good. Ki-Fueled attack is awesome and both of those are bonus actions that do damage without burning any more ki. FOB is generally a waste IMO unless you have a subclass that makes it better (as you noted).

I mean if we are talking "earl points". At 5th level you are spending a ki for an extra 5 damage (roughly) on that turn. I just don't agree 5 damage is a good way to spend it. I will admit if you have one of those 3 subclasses I mentioned it may be a different story, but I think generally dodge or situationally disengage or dash or most of the other subclasses abilities are all usually better than that 4 damage you get from using this expensive (for the level) resource. This is especially true since Ki-Fueled attack comes online at level 3 and stunning strike and focused aim are both online by this time.

In terms of damage per ki spent, at low levels focused aim is always going to outdo FOB (1 weapon hit and 1 weapon attack as a bonus vs 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus) and Stunning Strike will usually outdo FOB considering your allies and the attacks you have next turn.

 

[Undrave]

On no, at high level you have ki for that stuff too, while also having an essentially permanent dodge. As I noted if you only dodge every single turn you will have PLENTY of ki left over by the time your rest. That :"plenty" is ki you can use for lots of other fun stuff.

Yeah but I'm getting those spells at level 3, Not at high level. A lot of people never play at high level. I've never gone past level and I don't care how good the class gets at level 15 or whatever. I want it to be good at the level I play it.

While I am on it though, I will point out that full spell casters are also more reliant on ASIs at early levels than Fighters or Rogues are, yet no one seems to point at that as a weakness of casters or suggest that only Fighters and Rogues can do "the FUN thing.

Casters have built in fun stuff: SPELLS.

Every class has poor abilities, I would not call them traps but they are mechanically inferior to other available options.

Nah, if something is poor but treated as the same value as a superior option, in a way that's not fully obvious at first glance, it's a trap.

Please update yourself on the Monk class abilities if you are going to make substantive posts. There are 12 different abilities the basic Monk class can use ki points for, not counting subclass abilities.

By 'basic' I meant the first ones you get at the same time as Ki. At level 2.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah but I'm getting those spells at level 3, Not at high level. A lot of people never play at high level. I've never gone past level and I don't care how good the class gets at level 15 or whatever. I want it to be good at the level I play it.

And as I said repeatedly from the very begining of this debate Monk is weak in most of tier 2, it is very strong at high level.

So yes if your position is ki is limited and the things they can do with are not powerful at mid level, then you are exactly right. But that is fundamentally different than suggesting it is a weak martial class overall (i.e. all leves from 1-20)

Casters have built in fun stuff: SPELLS.

So do many Monk subclasses.

Nah, if something is poor but treated as the same value as a superior option, in a way that's not fully obvious at first glance, it's a trap.

I don't think it is a trap because supposedly some people find it fun (although I question that). For those who look at all the options though it is mechanically weak.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So has the warlord question been settled? What did everyone decide?

 

[Undrave]

So has the warlord question been settled? What did everyone decide?

I hink we decided 5e is too selfish an edition for a team player class? Or that it smells too much of 4e?

And as I said repeatedly from the very begining of this debate Monk is weak in most of tier 2, it is very strong at high level.

So yes if your position is ki is limited and the things they can do with are not powerful at mid level, then you are exactly right. But that is fundamentally different than suggesting it is a weak martial class overall (i.e. all leves from 1-20)

It can be the best class in the world at high level, but if it's not good at the levels people actually play, then it's simply not a good class.

 

[ECMO3]

It can be the best class in the world at high level, but if it's not good at the levels people actually play, then it's simply not a good class.

People do play at high level and almost everyone plays at level 1-2 and the Monk is a strong class in both of those ranges. It is around level 5-8 where it is objectively weak in comparison to other classes and it is a small minority of games that are played only in that small window.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I agree buffing even being useful could be too complicated for the 5e standards. 5e bets for clarity and simplicity for faster combats. If WotC wants a D&D wargame with mass battles then the battle has to be as simple as possible. And this is truer even if they want the warlord or marshall class to be used in that wargame.

The time-limited buffs and nerfs have to be avoid, because the DM shouldn't lose the time calculating when buff are still active or have ended.

Any suggestion? The time limit to be replaced with a pool of power points and these used for all the buffing and enemy-nerfing powers. Then you shouldn't worry about the time. And this could help in power balance in the sense if a munchkin uses too many buffs these would be for a shorter time.

 

[Clint_L]

I find it really weird to be having a big debate over the current monk build. It's dead as a doornail; even if you're not already using the 2024 version (you should; it's so much better), it'll be live in a few months anyway.

FoB is great with the new build, because you have a slightly higher damage base, you have more di, crucially, it steps up to allowing three extra attacks at level 10, and it comes off the bonus action, meaning that you can always combine it with the dodge action if necessary. Between that and deflect missile becoming deflect attack, monk are very capable tanks, especially against single opponents.

For example, at level 10, my monk's base attacks, unarmed, each hit for an average of 10.5 damage (d8+5+1 for eldritch claw tattoo); going up to 14 if I need to activate the tattoo for a tough fight. With FoB that's a base of 52.5 or 70 damage per round, which is pretty damned respectable. Even in tank mode, using the dodge action, she's still sitting at a base of 31.5 DPR (plus 14 more from deflect attack if she wants to spend di on that).