I think you mean "Not forgoing", as that means to not do something.
No I mean forgo - you forgo patient defense, as in you don't do Patient Defense in order to use martial arts or Ki-Fueled Attack as a bonus action. That is often a good choice. Using FOB rarely is though.
FOB can be stronger or weaker depending on level, but as you go up the numbers go up and even then we're talking about a game of damage. The Monk has defensive options, but the best one is to not be there when things are going down, in which case sometimes Disengage can be the play, but also simply running away and taking a single hit can be enough, especially when high-level monks can have enough speed to outpace a lot of foes.
Yes but FOB is not enough extra damage to matter very often. FOB is based on martial arts dice which don't scale fast enough to have a single attack make much of a difference, especially when Ki-fueled attack is almost always going to do more damage than a martial arts attack. Like I said at 20th level FOB is about 7-8 points more damage than just doing martial arts. More often then not the enemy you were attacking is going to die on the exact same turn he was going to die on if you did not use FOB.
Disengage is usually worse than Patient Defense or Dash for the "not be there" use case. It is generally rare that Disengage is better than one of the other two options. A Monk has high movement, but not enough to move into melee range and then move out of melee range to the point where the enemy can't reach them. To do this effectively round after round they will need an obstacle or they will need to use dash. Even when they do have enough to do it, it presumes the enemy does not have ranged attacks or other enemies are not going to be able to attack the Monk.
IME if you are going to be backing out of melee with a Monk it is usually (not always) better to use Dash or Dodge and take the AOO then it is going to be to use Disengage. The reason is dash or dodge will give you more protection against future attacks in the vast majority of cases.
Yeah, but that's a risk with anything. You use Patient Defense and someone hits you through your dodge, does that suddenly negate the strategy of the move? It's always a risk that what you do doesn't work, so trying to frame on the idea that it doesn't work misses the return on when it does, especially with multiple chances. Stunning strike has game-changing returns.
Yes it is a risk, but mathematically giving you a 4th opportunity to stun an enemy is not likely to be game changing.
Stunning Strike is game changing but having 2 weapon attacks plus 2 martial arts attacks with 4 stunning strike opportunities is generally not going to be game changing compared to having 3 weapon attacks with 3 stunning strike opportunities, especially when you consider it is 3 ki vs 5 ki.
Yeah, but all those can work with Flurry of Blows. If you cast Hex, Flurry of Blows is great because more potential hits means more potential damage through the Hex die, and as an added bonus you can get knock-on effects for certain subclasses/styles: Hex on the Open Hand Monk with Flurry of Blows is awesome because once Hexed I can use it to knock them down by giving them Disadvantage on Athletics or Acrobatics checks (since Shoves are a check and not a save).
Forced movement with WOH substantially buffs FOB and on such a character I would not be as down on it. I have not played this subclass personally but I question the utility of Hex generally in such a combination because of bonus action economy.
Patient Defense might beat those actions, but again we are talking about high-level enemies typically with very large to-hit bonuses. Dodge becomes less useful as you pass the modified AC10 threshold. This isn't to say that it isn't good, but I'm not sure it's nearly as automatic as you make it out to be. I find that in 5E, people get hit way more than they don't even with Disadvantage, and with lower hit points it's not necessarily a sure thing.
It does become less useful, but your static AC is going up as well, whch compensates some.
This isn't that, I'm simply pointing out the power through very basic synergy. The effects of Stunned are absolutely massive and while you can try to write it off as situational, the stuff I'm mentioning is pretty common party teamwork.
They do, but IME that type of teamwork is generally going to drive you away from FOB, not towards it. At low levels you want to save ki for things that are more effective (like stunning strike). At high levels when you have a lot of ki you are usually going to want to do something else with your bonus action and you often have a bad ass magic weapon that you are going to want to use instead of using martial arts.
Like, if I'm calculating this right (you're taking the average damage and then multiplying it by the likelihood of hitting, correct?)
For the Dragon yes, for the Monk no; I am considering unlimited ki, which means the Monk hits on a 2 with focused aim.
Remember also this is with a weak weapon for the level. With a good weapon and the damage is going to get closer. Give her something like a Staff of Striking or a Flame Tongue (and a different Dragon) and the damage can actually go down using FOB.
You put 4 attempts in there and they're either wasting Legendaries or (if they are down one or two) you might well stun them. It could fail, but I'm not going to be doing 20 rounds of dodging, especially against a BBEG.
None of these examples will last even 20 rounds. The guy doing FOB is burning on 3.1 ki per turn on average, the guy using patient defense is burning 1.9 ki per turn average. That is only using focused aim, and FOB or patient defense.
Not considering focused aim or legendaries the chance of stunning a red dragonon 2 attacks with a +1 monk weapon plus two martial arts attacks is 53%, the chance on 3 attacks with a +1 weapon is 46%. That is hardly groundbreaking. If you consider legendaries, and he has them all, the chance of doing it with FOB is 0.08% or 8 times in 10000 combats.
And this is just a white-box with no other party members in support.
This is exactly the case, although this is a weak enemy for 20th level characters. Put the other PCs in there and FOB becomes even less impressive as the extra damage becomes even less relevant.
With 20th level characters that Dragon will often die in one round and almost always die in 2 rounds. Your use of FOB is extremely unlikely to change that and is unlikely to even change the turn it does die on. On the other hand using FOB will cost you more both in ki and in hps than dodging, so I fail to see how that is better for the party.
And that last part is really part of the value of FOB and other things: if you are alone, then dodging is more optimal because you are taking all the fire. But with 3 other party members there, that won't be the case. We shouldn't simply look at it like that when we assess the value of FOB.
See I think this is backwards. With other party members there the minimal damage you get from FOB is usually irrelevant. Almost always irrelevant in fact when you compare it to ki-fueled attack or martial arts niether of which cost any ki.
That is my biggest problem with FOB, it is not effective use of ki. Dodging might not be either for a specific situation, but just because you can't dodge does not make FOB more effective.
Yes, but it's hardly a tank, either. The monk is more of a striker hybrid, someone who has interesting defense options but is still very vulnerable to being hit even if they don't want to be. At the end it's causing decent enough damage with its hits, but more than that are the things it can do around those hits.
The Monk is a poor striker IMO. They are a good tank when they want to tank and they are a good (arguably the best) controller among non-casters.
Everyone is vulnerable to being hit, Monk is less vulnerable than other classes when they don't want to be hit.
I mean, that would depend on the Monk, wouldn't it? Drunken Masters naturally get a Disengage with their FOB. Open Hand their push/trip tied to their FOB. More than that, the way the Ki Pool is built is uneven across different subclasses to where it's easy for certain subclasses to Nova effectively while a few others are really ki-dependent (hello, Way of the 4 Elements).
I am looking at the class options, if you start talking about individual subclasses things change quite a bit.
While DM, OH and Astral Self all have subclass abilities that enhance FOB quite a bit and TBH make it a better use of ki. Others though for the most part have another good use of Ki that make it even less valuable in comparison.
For example you talk about taking unwanted hits above. A Long Death Monk can burn ki to stay above 0hp, so in addition to dodging she can't die as long as she has 1 ki left.
Again, this is why I wanted to move away from large pools, make more actions just actions and save big flashy things for spending a more limited resource so that spending ki was something special rather than something automatic. Spending the few early points you have on dodging instead of anything else is not exactly a stirring defense of the class and I'd say that it's already costed well as taking away other Bonus Actions. Same with Disengage. Hell, at this point I feel like you've successfully argued that for Flurry of Blows!
Martial arts as a bonus action is good. Ki-Fueled attack is awesome and both of those are bonus actions that do damage without burning any more ki. FOB is generally a waste IMO unless you have a subclass that makes it better (as you noted).
I mean if we are talking "earl points". At 5th level you are spending a ki for an extra 5 damage (roughly) on that turn. I just don't agree 5 damage is a good way to spend it. I will admit if you have one of those 3 subclasses I mentioned it may be a different story, but I think generally dodge or situationally disengage or dash or most of the other subclasses abilities are all usually better than that 4 damage you get from using this expensive (for the level) resource. This is especially true since Ki-Fueled attack comes online at level 3 and stunning strike and focused aim are both online by this time.
In terms of damage per ki spent, at low levels focused aim is always going to outdo FOB (1 weapon hit and 1 weapon attack as a bonus vs 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus) and Stunning Strike will usually outdo FOB considering your allies and the attacks you have next turn.