D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[Undrave]

For Warlord, I would like an Unarmored Defense Improvement, at a higher tier, that allows both Medium Armor + Mental Ability. But this is alot within Bounded Accuracy. It would be: AC 14 Breastplate + 2 Dex + 2 Shield + 5 Mental = AC 23 even without magic. I guess around Epic?

Nah, not specifically unarmored defense, just ditch DEX entirely from the calc. Your AC is now Armor+INT or Armor+WIS or Armor+CHA. And sometimes +Shield. That way you can have the medium armored strategist at the back that's still not too squishy. I think it works great aesthetically. And you could have an Archer Warlord who keeps DEX for AC.

I am a fan of a pool of energy, flavoring variously as psychic focus, magical mana, physical stamina, and so on.

Flavorwise, I like less masochism or vampirism.

Converting energy into Hit Points is fine. But converting Hit Points into energy is less fine. Heh, its a flavor thing.

I dunno why I wrote 'invocation' when I meant Arcanum. I like the plan of replacing the Invocations with various types of effects. I was wondering what could be a thing you can use for a BIG effect.

The Sorcerer depends on subclass. The Dragon should be tanky.

The Swordmage tanks via magic, such as regeneration, with normal Hit Dice.

Oh right I forgot about those two.

prefer the Hit Point expectations to rank something like.

d12 Barbarian, Fighter
d10 Paladin, Ranger, Monk
d8 Druid, Swordmage, Warlord
d8 Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Wizard, Psion, Warlock, Sorcerer, Artificer

Every class in the d8 rank has a subclass to tank in the d10 rank.

Did you meant to type d8 twice?

Maybe HP should have more nuances than simple three different dice types.

 

[ECMO3]

It's not permanant if you can run out of dodges. Also, you don't have the HP of a Fighter and you rarely stun opponents.

I said high level, and at high level it is permanent because you won't run out of Ki dodging.

A 15th level Monk can dodge every single round of combat and have plenty of ki left over before the next rest. Not some ki left over, plenty if all they are doing is dodging.

You know what is not permanent and any class can run out of in play if you get hit enough - hit points and they are far more limited at high level than ki regardless of race, class or constitution.

That's a huge gamble because the Monk does NOT have good hit points.

No it isn't it is math. The chance of a crit is 5% normally. The chance of a crit while dodging is 0.25%. The non-dodging character is 20 times more likely to take crits and over a comparable time period will take 20 times as many crits. A raging bear totem Barbarian Hill Dwarf with max Con and tough feat can not absorb 20 times as many crits as a Monk with a 10 constitution.

In terms of conserving hit points it is a far, far bigger "gamble" to depend on a high hit dice and constitution than it is to depend on being difficult to hit.

When it comes to withstanding attacks, being hard to hit statistically beats having higher hit points and a Monk that is dodging as a bonus action is on the high side of all the classes in the ability to take attacks. Not the best (that goes to EK Fighters with warcaster and shield spell and Bladesingers), but pretty darn good overall.

A High level Monk is a force to reckon with. On top of the fact they can dodge every round with a bonus action and heal themselves mid combat if necessary, they also make the majority of their saving throws, limiting the time they spend paralyzed, stunned etc, they are completely immune to poison and usually take no damage at all from anything requiring a dex save.

 

[ECMO3]

That's only if you don't take any Feats, or you managed to convince your DM to roll-up stats and got good rolls. Their AC can be better than most, but that isn't really as true in practice because of the nature of the game. The Monk has to spend valuable ASIs, while others can simply put on armor. It can be better, but it certainly not always the case.

In practice it is true because in practice you are typically taking ASIs over feats (with the possible exception of level 4.

Playing either a Variant Human or a Mountain Dwarf on point buy you can have a 20 AC at level 12, while also dodging the vast majority of rounds. Any other class needs spells to match that.

At level 16 you can have a 21, matching even a Sword and Board Fighter or Paladin with Defense fighting style when you are NOT dodging.

Not sure I agree with that when the name of the game is damage output and certain archetypes have their powers tied to it.

FOB is very weak damage compared to what else you can use your ki for. IF it did more damage you would have a point, but compared to martial arts you are talking about roughly 7-8 points of damage for using a ki at 20th level. That is the peak, at lower levels is worth less. It is going to be rare that this damage will make a difference. Not unheard of but rare.

FOB is WEAK damage. This is especially true when you consider your weapons usually have high magic bonuses and using ki on your action lets you attack with your weapon.

Forgoing patient defense or another using a Martial Arts bonus action attack is often advisable. Using FOB if very rarely good. Maybe if you know you won't run out of ki and if you know no one will attack you during the next turn (i.e. one BBEG and he is stunned or similar), or if an enemy is very low on hit points and you think having two shots at him are worth the ki to get the kill now .... but those circumstances are not common,

Uh, speak for yourself. Unless you are only dealing with mooks, the way health scales while damage only scales with extra attacks, I'm not sure how you aren't going to be in reach of higher level enemies with time to spend on attacks.

You don't need 4 enemies in reach, you just need one with a bunch of health, like a boss monster. The name of the game is damage output. Attached things like Open Fist stuff is useful as hell, especially if you have something like a Hex on someone's main stat and attempt to knock them down.

Ok. To be clear - the argument presented that you replied to was FOB allows a Monk to use more stunning strikes in a turn. If you are using stunning strike with FOB you need to be able to hit the enemies with your unarmed strikes and they need to be within reach when the Monk takes the attack action.

If you are fighting one single higher level enemy, yes he will always be within reach, but he won't always be vulnerable to stunning strike. You have 3 attacks and 3 chances to stun before FOB matters at all in terms of stunning that enemy and if you land one of them then you can't stun with FOB

Your first post quoted above said "enemies" as in plural. To use FOB against multiple enemies they need to be standing right next to the Monk.

FOB does increase you damage output against a single enemy or against 2 enemies standing right next to the Monk, but it increases it by very, very little. Something like getting a single casting of Hex through Fey touched (and boosing Wisdom) will give you a bigger bonus to damage over the course of a day than using your ki for FOB will.

What Stunning Strike is really good at doing is burning Legendary Resistances or locking down someone who lacks those through sheer weight of numbers at high level. That sort of power is the reason you have Legendary Resistances!

It can be good at this, but FOB is one more attack only and one more chance to stun for the cost of 2 ki. It can be the right move, but this is situational. It is most beneficia when you are high level AND ki is plentiful AND the enemy has legendary resistance AND does not have a great con save AND another use of your bonus action is not more advisable.

Also keep in mind enemies with legendary resistance at high level also often have legendary actions and at that level using patient defense to beat those multiple attacks, or alternatively to take an AOO and move out of range to get hit with Legendary action attacks is often advisable.

I'm sorry, but this is overcomplicating the situation so much that I can't even recognize it as something realistic. I've both run and GM'd monks before and I've never seen this sort of thought process go into the use of Stunning Strike. Typically speaking it's a fairly easy call given the potential return on a fail, especially if you have something lowering their saves like a Bane spell or Silvery Barbs (or Lathander help you, both).

That is my pont, people don't think this through, they just use FOB and complain they are out of ki and Monks are weak.

Think about what you are saying here - I have 3 attacks to land this stun (1 probably with advantage), the bad guy has Bane on him and my Wizard is going to make him reroll if he makes his save ..... but by gosh if I use FOB, going from 3 to 4 attacks - that is going to be what makes a difference!

This is the real problem with Monks - if you could not stun a guy on 3 attacks under Bane and also with Silvery Barbs it is a safe bet your 4th attack from FOB is not going to either. This is the like a Wizard expecting a good result Fireballing a bunch of Devils because Fireball is his favorite spell.

Like, your list of "failure states" misses that you have to get to those points to find out and trying to outlast up close with the Monk is dumb, especially if you are wasting Ki on dodging given how much To-Hit bonuses scale compared to AC: having a 20 AC is adorable to an adult dragon who is adding +14 to hit you, even if you decide to Dodge. The whole point of the Monk class is to do things quick to overwhelm someone: I've seen a Monk hit someone with 3 attacks and only get a stun on the third one, but even still it was massive because suddenly that creature can't do anything until the end my next turn, granting my allies advantage and the ability to do a ton of stuff.

Ok this is a great example.

Your 20th level Monk is in melee with an adult Red Dragon and he is wielding lets say a Dragontooth Dagger (which is pretty weak for this level).

With unlimited ki, using Focused aim and the Dragon concentrates all attacks on you (no breath weapon):

If you stay in melee range and your Monk uses FOB the dragon will do 83 DPR and you will do 48 DPR.

If you stay in melee range and attack but do not use FOB you use 1 less ki and do 40 DPR.

If you dodge and stay in melee, the dragon will do 60 DPR and you will do 28 DPR

If you disengage and move the dragon will do 44DPR and you will do 28 DPR

Now in the numbers above I gave the Monk a weak weapon (for 20th level) and no AC-boosting magic at all. Either of these would move the needle further towards the Monk that does NOT use FOB. At best you are getting another 18 damage from using FOB compared to using dodge or disengage or 8 more compared to using no ki on FOB and this is a team event where the Dragon is focusing on you alone and you should have allies helping.

This is with no magic at all boosting your weapon attacks or your AC and it is using focused aim so you only need a 2 to hit.

You're making the decision to tank because you are removing most of your special abilities to move or shape the battle by doing so. If you are Dodging, you're expecting to take hits, thus "tanking" them. We're splitting hairs on words when we don't need to be.

If I am ddodging I am expecting to take attacks and take fewer hits than if I was dodging.

If the Monk was more of a striker or if unarmed strikes did more damage it would be different, but FOB is a bad use of ki most of the time and an unarmed strike is usually not the best use of your bonus action if you have ki to make the better bonus actions available.

Note this is also a different story if you have a good magic weapon (which is relatively often) and can use ki-fueled attack. In this case using your bonus action to attack instead of using a ki because your attack is hitting harder and not costing any (more) ki.

 

[Undrave]

A 15th level Monk can dodge every single round of combat and have plenty of ki left over before the next rest. Not some ki left over, plenty if all they are doing is dodging.

So if they don't do anything cool? If they ignore a ton of other class features? Like my aforementioned Shadow Monks never casting any of their spells that cost Ki.

In practice it is true because in practice you are typically taking ASIs over feats (with the possible exception of level 4.

Another exemple of 'do the efficient thing and not the FUN thing'.

FOB is WEAK damage. This is especially true when you consider your weapons usually have high magic bonuses and using ki on your action lets you attack with your weapon.

So we've established that FOB is bad and Step of the Wind is underpowered compared to Patient Defense. So the Monk is essentially full of Trap Options (Nobody likes 4 Elements Monk) and you're telling me it's NOT a stupid design?? The fact that out of three basic things you can do with Ki, only one is actually good, is a pretty bad design if you ask me.

 

[Justice and Rule]

In practice it is true because in practice you are typically taking ASIs over feats (with the possible exception of level 4.

Playing either a Variant Human or a Mountain Dwarf on point buy you can have a 20 AC at level 12, while also dodging the vast majority of rounds. Any other class needs spells to match that.

At level 16 you can have a 21, matching even a Sword and Board Fighter or Paladin with Defense fighting style when you are NOT dodging.

Ah cool, like to know that this works in a particular set of circumstances and not most of them. Again, if we have to get very specific, that's not exactly the "practice" as much as "what we need to get it to work".

FOB is very weak damage compared to what else you can use your ki for. IF it did more damage you would have a point, but compared to martial arts you are talking about roughly 7-8 points of damage for using a ki at 20th level. That is the peak, at lower levels is worth less. It is going to be rare that this damage will make a difference. Not unheard of but rare.

FOB is WEAK damage. This is especially true when you consider your weapons usually have high magic bonuses and using ki on your action lets you attack with your weapon.

Forgoing patient defense or another using a Martial Arts bonus action attack is often advisable. Using FOB if very rarely good. Maybe if you know you won't run out of ki and if you know no one will attack you during the next turn (i.e. one BBEG and he is stunned or similar), or if an enemy is very low on hit points and you think having two shots at him are worth the ki to get the kill now .... but those circumstances are not common,

I think you mean "Not forgoing", as that means to not do something.

FOB can be stronger or weaker depending on level, but as you go up the numbers go up and even then we're talking about a game of damage. The Monk has defensive options, but the best one is to not be there when things are going down, in which case sometimes Disengage can be the play, but also simply running away and taking a single hit can be enough, especially when high-level monks can have enough speed to outpace a lot of foes.

Ok. To be clear - the argument presented that you replied to was FOB allows a Monk to use more stunning strikes in a turn. If you are using stunning strike with FOB you need to be able to hit the enemies with your unarmed strikes and they need to be within reach when the Monk takes the attack action.

If you are fighting one single higher level enemy, yes he will always be within reach, but he won't always be vulnerable to stunning strike. You have 3 attacks and 3 chances to stun before FOB matters at all in terms of stunning that enemy and if you land one of them then you can't stun with FOB

Yeah, but that's a risk with anything. You use Patient Defense and someone hits you through your dodge, does that suddenly negate the strategy of the move? It's always a risk that what you do doesn't work, so trying to frame on the idea that it doesn't work misses the return on when it does, especially with multiple chances. Stunning strike has game-changing returns.

Your first post quoted above said "enemies" as in plural. To use FOB against multiple enemies they need to be standing right next to the Monk.

Okay, and...? Typically I find it harder to find two mooks who aren't close together because, generally, they are trying to get in on you (unless they are ranged combatants or something, but that's a whole different set of strategy decisions). Suffice to say that I don't really find that to be much a hindrance.

FOB does increase you damage output against a single enemy or against 2 enemies standing right next to the Monk, but it increases it by very, very little. Something like getting a single casting of Hex through Fey touched (and boosing Wisdom) will give you a bigger bonus to damage over the course of a day than using your ki for FOB will.

Yeah, but all those can work with Flurry of Blows. If you cast Hex, Flurry of Blows is great because more potential hits means more potential damage through the Hex die, and as an added bonus you can get knock-on effects for certain subclasses/styles: Hex on the Open Hand Monk with Flurry of Blows is awesome because once Hexed I can use it to knock them down by giving them Disadvantage on Athletics or Acrobatics checks (since Shoves are a check and not a save).

It can be good at this, but FOB is one more attack only and one more chance to stun for the cost of 2 ki. It can be the right move, but this is situational. It is most beneficia when you are high level AND ki is plentiful AND the enemy has legendary resistance AND does not have a great con save AND another use of your bonus action is not more advisable.

Also keep in mind enemies with legendary resistance at high level also often have legendary actions and at that level using patient defense to beat those multiple attacks, or alternatively to take an AOO and move out of range to get hit with Legendary action attacks is often advisable.

Patient Defense might beat those actions, but again we are talking about high-level enemies typically with very large to-hit bonuses. Dodge becomes less useful as you pass the modified AC10 threshold. This isn't to say that it isn't good, but I'm not sure it's nearly as automatic as you make it out to be. I find that in 5E, people get hit way more than they don't even with Disadvantage, and with lower hit points it's not necessarily a sure thing.

That is my pont, people don't think this through, they just use FOB and complain they are out of ki and Monks are weak.

Think about what you are saying here - I have 3 attacks (1 probably with advantage), the bad guy has Bane on him and my Wizard is going to make him reroll if he makes his save ..... but by gosh if I use FOB and get 4 attacks that is going to be what makes a difference!

This is the real problem with Monks - if you could not stun a guy on 3 attacks under Bane and also with Silvery Barbs it is a safe bet your 4th attack from FOB is not going to either. This is the like a Wizard expecting a good result Fireballing a bunch of Devils because Fireball is his favorite spell.

This isn't that, I'm simply pointing out the power through very basic synergy. The effects of Stunned are absolutely massive and while you can try to write it off as situational, the stuff I'm mentioning is pretty common party teamwork.

Ok this is a great example.

Your 20th level Monk is in melee with an adult Red Dragon and he is wielding lets say a Dragontooth Dagger (which is pretty weak for this level).

With unlimited ki, using Focused aim and the Dragon concentrates all attacks on you (no breath weapon):

If you stay in melee range and your Monk uses FOB the dragon will do 83 DPR and you will do 48 DPR.

If you stay in melee range and attack but do not use FOB you use 1 less ki and do 40 DPR.

If you dodge and stay in melee, the dragon will do 60 DPR and you will do 28 DPR

If you disengage and move the dragon will do 44DPR and you will do 28 DPR

Now in the numbers above I gave the Monk a weak weapon (for 20th level) and no AC-boosting magic at all. Either of these would move the needle further towards the Monk that does NOT use FOB. At best you are getting another 18 damage from using FOB compared to using dodge or disengage or 8 more compared to using no ki on FOB and this is a team event where the Dragon is focusing on you alone and you should have allies helping.

This is with no magic at all boosting your weapon attacks or your AC and it is using focused aim so you only need a 2 to hit.

... Why aren't we using Attack/FOB/Move away? Yes, you'll invite an Attack of Opportunity, but if we max that out, even using a Jaws attack that's still going to be roughly the same amount as dodging for significantly more damage caused. Like, if I'm calculating this right (you're taking the average damage and then multiplying it by the likelihood of hitting, correct?) so, that'd make the DPR on a Attack/FOB/Move to around 63 DPR for the Dragon compared to 48 DPR for you, right? The Dragon has 256 Hit Points, so that's almost a fifth of its HP on your turn for... just over a third of yours if you move out (133+10 for a Con mod of +2).

But you also have a DC19 save for your Stunning Strike and he's saving on a DC6 with his +13 Con Save. You put 4 attempts in there and they're either wasting Legendaries or (if they are down one or two) you might well stun them. It could fail, but I'm not going to be doing 20 rounds of dodging, especially against a BBEG. And this is just a white-box with no other party members in support.

And that last part is really part of the value of FOB and other things: if you are alone, then dodging is more optimal because you are taking all the fire. But with 3 other party members there, that won't be the case. We shouldn't simply look at it like that when we assess the value of FOB.

If I am ddodging I am expecting to take attacks and take fewer hits than if I was dodging.

If the Monk was more of a striker or if unarmed strikes did more damage it would be different, but FOB is a bad use of ki most of the time and an unarmed strike is usually not the best use of your bonus action if you have ki to make the better bonus actions available.

Yes, but it's hardly a tank, either. The monk is more of a striker hybrid, someone who has interesting defense options but is still very vulnerable to being hit even if they don't want to be. At the end it's causing decent enough damage with its hits, but more than that are the things it can do around those hits.

Note this is also a different story if you have a good magic weapon (which is relatively often) and can use ki-fueled attack. In this case using your bonus action to attack instead of using a ki because your attack is hitting harder and not costing any (more) ki.

I mean, that would depend on the Monk, wouldn't it? Drunken Masters naturally get a Disengage with their FOB. Open Hand their push/trip tied to their FOB. More than that, the way the Ki Pool is built is uneven across different subclasses to where it's easy for certain subclasses to Nova effectively while a few others are really ki-dependent (hello, Way of the 4 Elements).

Again, this is why I wanted to move away from large pools, make more actions just actions and save big flashy things for spending a more limited resource so that spending ki was something special rather than something automatic. Spending the few early points you have on dodging instead of anything else is not exactly a stirring defense of the class and I'd say that it's already costed well as taking away other Bonus Actions. Same with Disengage. Hell, at this point I feel like you've successfully argued that for Flurry of Blows!

 

[Yaarel]

Did you meant to type d8 twice?

Maybe HP should have more nuances than simple three different dice types.

Some classes only have a d8 Hit Dice, but supply significant Hit Points from other class features (such as healing, Wild Shape, etetera), or have high AC or Damage Resistance or even other methods like Incorporeal, to prevent the loss of Hit Points. These are something like "d8+" Hit Dice classes.

 

[Undrave]

Some classes only have a d8 Hit Dice, but supply significant Hit Points from other class features (such as healing, Wild Shape, etetera), or have high AC or Damage Resistance or even other methods like Incorporeal, to prevent the loss of Hit Points. These are something like "d8+" Hit Dice classes.

I was also thinking about how the game gives you 'max Dice + CON mod' at level one and maybe it doesn't need to always be max dice, so you could have guys with the same Hit Die but different starting HP.

 

[Yaarel]

I was also thinking about how the game gives you 'max Dice + CON mod' at level one and maybe it doesn't need to always be max dice, so you could have guys with the same Hit Die but different starting HP.

It kind needs to be max at Level 1. When looking at the CR and Level comparisons, it reminded me how fragile the Level 1 characters are. A monster can one-shot them.

I think, a character should already have Hit Die + Constitution during the "level 0" background, before gaining a level in a class.

Then, Level 1 is: 2(HD + Con)

The "normal" Hit Die is d8 + 1 Constitution. Players can take 5 Hit Points instead of rolling d8 randomly.


Consider a Bard with d8 Hit Die.
Level 0 Hit Points = d8 + Con = 5 + 1 = 6
Level 1 Hit Points = 2(d8 + Con) = 12
Level 2 Hit Points = 3(d8 + Con) = 18
...

Consider a d12 Barbarian, choosing options during level 0 to beef up the Hit Die, and with +3 Constitution.
Level 0 Hit Points = d12 + Con = 7 + 3 = 10
Level 1 Hit Points = 2(d12 + Con) = 20
Level 2 Hit Points = 3(d12 + Con) = 30

 

[Undrave]

It kind needs to be max at Level 1. When looking at the CR and Level comparisons, it reminded me how fragile the Level 1 characters are. A monster can one-shot them.

I was thinking Max +X actually. Like a Barbarian could have 14+CON mod (Max+2+CON) while a Fighter 12+CON mod.

 

[Shardstone]

Hi Ezekiel,

I don't think you have any intention to seriously engage on 3e (see as an example what you wrote about dissociated mechanics, which, like it or not, ARE a thing), I would waste my time and it would be off-topic anyway.
I am sorry you have such axe to grind against 3e, but your experience is not universal. As an example, you talk about buffing in-combat which is something that CAN situationally happen but when it does, it happens because is totally not a wasted action if the buff is useful for the circumstance.
I suppose I will keep reading these opinions on 3e stated as facts while I keep lurking.

Peace.

Your opinion and voice are very under rated and rare, but I appreciated your thoughts greatly on 3E, and they change how I both view the edition and how I view D&D as a whole (in a more subtle way). Thank you!