D&D 5E What would a 'real' D&D society look like?

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I don't extrapolate the rules for running adventure games to the game world at large. Adventurers are very rare, class levels are very rare. Clerics who can raise the dead are extremely rare. etc.

 

[Oofta]

Take a small army of 200 men, its no world conqueror but its enough in the medieval era for one small kingdom to send out to raid harass another. It is foot soldiers, some archers, and maybe half a dozen knights acting as leaders.

That army either marching during the day or worse encamped at night gets attacked by your average party of 5th level adventurers. The rogue cuts down with ease any sentries, the fighter or barbarian will easily crush anyone that is not one of the knights and odds are he can take on a couple of them. The cleric/druid depending on type can dish out damage or disrupt attempts to organize and the wizard/sorcerer wrecks havoc for the first minute or two.

Then the whole party melts away and that army is demoralized and down 15-30 soldiers, possibly more with little to no chance of actually inflicting harm on that party.

The question just becomes which is more expensive. The army of 200 or the 5th level party.

If it were my game, I suspect the PCs would be toast. I'd have to run the scenario, but you're making a ton of assumptions.

Like the idea that a small kingdom could just hire a band of 5th level adventurers. In my campaign, there are probably less than 100 people with character classes in the entire world. Or that if adventurers are that common that your band of 200 soldiers wouldn't have a handful of elite fighters in the mix. At the very least a veteran (or ten) along with some leader type, perhaps a warlord.

The cannon fodder troops may be low level guards, but if you're sending out a small "army" of 200 men, there has to be someone to coordinate, organize and discipline.

 

[Ovarwa]

Probably something like Order of the Stick.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Are you making the assumption that all people in this world use Player Character rules? Including the associated plot-protection from aspects of a medieval-level life that simply wouldn't be fun to play through, and thus weren't incorporated into the rules?

If your accusation is true, and the rules really do treat NPCs differently from PCs (and not just in a sense of simplified processes to achieve close-enough results for less effort), then the entire game is worth less than the paper it's written on. It would be the same mistake that ruined 4E, except now they can't claim to be ignorant about what a colossal mistake it was.

If NPCs don't heal using the same mechanics as PCs - if it's possible for them to suffer HP loss that doesn't recover overnight - then we have no idea how long it takes them.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I agree, but I'm essentially asking the opposite question: "what would society look like if these assumptions are true?" rather than "how do the assumptions need to be changed to result in this society?".

We don't have enough information to extrapolate from just the rules. The book is equally consistent with there being one magician every ten-thousand years or with everyone in the world having access to magic. Whatever assumptions that you make, in order to have something to extrapolate from, are going to shape the world far more significantly than the specifics of the rules. A high-magic world in GURPS is going to resemble a high-magic world in D&D more than a high-magic world in D&D would resemble a low-magic world in D&D.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Absolutely. As I mentioned in the original post I'm interested in the implications of the full set of rules, not just the magic.

Are you concerned about the implications of what the rules omit as well as what they cover? For instance, the rules don't cover the case of being wounded by a mere weapon, let alone an improvised weapon, in a way that is permanently debilitating rather than potentially fatal. You really can't "put an eye out with that thing," for instance. (Unless that thing is a magic item of eye-removal.)

Or what about the omission of less interesting things? The game presents a lot of monsters, not so many less-monstrous animals, and very few specific plant species. Does the world reflect that, or does it have plenty of ordinary plants & animals?

What about the many rules that require DM involvement? You can't make a check without the DM ruling the action uncertain and setting a DC - for instance. Does the world reflect that in some hypothetical way, or is whatever the DM represents in the world /very/ busy...

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

If your accusation is true, and the rules really do treat NPCs differently from PCs (and not just in a sense of simplified processes to achieve close-enough results for less effort)

Well, the rules do treat NPCs differently from PCs, (for example in generating ability scores in the DM so chooses), and it is precisely for the reason I mentioned and you reiterated: getting close-enough results for a fun game without getting bogged down in detail that the players would probably find uninteresting.

then the entire game is worth less than the paper it's written on. It would be the same mistake that ruined 4E, except now they can't claim to be ignorant about what a colossal mistake it was.

Eh. I have fun with 5e, so its worth more than the price of the paper for me. I don't believe that 4e was irrevocably ruined by that, and I'm not a fan of casting aspersions on the character or motivations of people who can't answer back. If you believe those things, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

If NPCs don't heal using the same mechanics as PCs - if it's possible for them to suffer HP loss that doesn't recover overnight - then we have no idea how long it takes them.

As mentioned in the part of my post you snipped out, it depends upon how you personally view hit points. I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that NPCs don't heal the same way as PCs.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The closest D&D ever came to treating PCs & NPCs/Monsters 'the same' was 3e, and it still introduced NPC classes and monster feats.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Well, the rules do treat NPCs differently from PCs, (for example in generating ability scores in the DM so chooses), and it is precisely for the reason I mentioned and you reiterated: getting close-enough results for a fun game without getting bogged down in detail that the players would probably find uninteresting.

The rules use slightly different granularity to reflect the same underlying reality, but both PCs and NPCs are actually identical within that reality. Whether you round HP up at each level, or take the average HP as a sum across all levels, those are just two different levels of granularity to reflect the same reality (which give slightly different results, but are close enough for a value that we're only going to use once). The rules also provide the option of creating NPCs as PCs, in case you care more about the integrity of the model than expedience.

As mentioned in the part of my post you snipped out, it depends upon how you personally view hit points. I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that NPCs don't heal the same way as PCs.

Hit Points reflect your capacity to withstand injury. Damage corresponds to some sort of physical injury. There is no alternative perspective worth considering. We know that it's not fatigue, because we have rules for fatigue, and they're different. We know it's not luck, because we have rules for luck, and they're different. We know it's not magic, or divine favor or anything like that, because we have those rules and we know how they interact with Hit Points.

So given that HP damage is the only mechanic we have which actually reflects physical damage, and given that PCs and NPCs heal from HP damage at the same rate, it is thus impossible for an NPC to suffer an injury which persists through a long rest. It's impossible for NPCs, just like it's impossible for PCs, because there is no difference between the two within their shared reality.

 

[Dan Chernozub]

Well, I'm currently running the world with a theme "Heroes also fail sometimes".

Right now the Material Plane is recuperating from an epic-level party failing to stop an extra-planar entity breaking into the world and devouring souls of 99% of the intelligent beings on the Plane. The civilizations are rebuilding themselves (with varied success) the PC classes are somewhat common and there is little to none stability in the ruling elite. And by somewhat common I mean ~1% of the population.

Meritocracy you would call it if you were optimistic. Kratocracy if not. The center of the campaign is the human-centric, mediocrely xenophobic kingdom. No such thing as a ruling dynasty exists - the death of the king results in the political power struggle that can last for years. Of course, those with access to high-level adventuring class resources end up on top of it.

Adventuring takes a lot to start with (rolling up good stats mechanics-wise) and gives you a lot of wealth and power, but is also extremely dangerous. Ressurection spells better than Raise Dead are extremely rare (and no one on the Plane can currently cast TR). So most of those with PC class levels "retire" in one form or another between levels 5 and 9. Some retire earlier, some keep going further, but most of those who survive end up with a nice, upper 1% living for the rest of their lives.

Overall my word is (purposefully) small - the whole population of the main Kingdom is ~600k. The whole Ecumene is approx. 3 million sentient beings. This still gives 30.000 individuals with adventuring levels or equivalent. This still means over 200 active adventuring parties in the Kingdom itself. Not to mention thousands of persons in relatively safe positions of wealth and power who are roughly equivalent to a mid level PC in terms of personal power.

As usual, having the power to get the position of wealth and well-being means using that power to hold on that position, so those powers are mostly not going towards "the good of the society".

I know I must be missing some of the crucial points, please point it out - I will be happy to answer & it will make my games a bit better.