What Is A Sith/Sith Post RoS?

[Scribe]

Especially the deconstruction of the Jedi Order -- which I get is partially just because the times they are a-changing and the audience is finding them more fundamentally flawed than they once did, but the way Lucasfilm has been writing them under Disney's purview hasn't helped. If anything, they've just doubled down on it. As much as I liked The Acolyte, for instance, it still portrays the Jedi Order in a pretty bad light.

I know people these days prefer their shades of gray over clear black and white, good and bad, but Star Wars is a space opera. I think it is OK for it to be mostly black and white with Jedi = good and Sith = bad. I don't have any problem with that.

I'm fine with a Good/Bad = Jedi/Sith breakdown. I grew up on the original Star Wars, but even the first of the 2nd trilogy, I found myself going 'ah so this is how it all goes sideways for Anakin'. How the premise of controlling ones emotions, avoiding the 'Dark Side' to me has just been so painfully, poorly, done.

And the weirdest thing, is that the very obvious inspirations for Lucas, provide the answer, and its just not been done. It really does read to me like he completely misunderstood what he was using as the basis for the Jedi world view.

 

[Zardnaar]

Exactly. It's too much. Especially the deconstruction of the Jedi Order -- which I get is partially just because the times they are a-changing and the audience is finding them more fundamentally flawed than they once did, but the way Lucasfilm has been writing them under Disney's purview hasn't helped. If anything, they've just doubled down on it. As much as I liked The Acolyte, for instance, it still portrays the Jedi Order in a pretty bad light.

I know people these days prefer their shades of gray over clear black and white, good and bad, but Star Wars is a space opera. I think it is OK for it to be mostly black and white with Jedi = good and Sith = bad. I don't have any problem with that.

I don't mind up to a point. I think the order in Acolyte +Lukes failure is a bit much. One or the other not both.

Luke's failure was also to rehash ANH. Yay.

At what point do you start cheering for the villains?

 

[Scribe]

At what point do you start cheering for the villains?

When the lessons one learns in any basic course on psychology, modern self help practices, and so on, many (many!) of which come from the ancient past, are seemingly not applied to a group based on said beliefs.

Its wild how poorly the case is made for the Jedi, as they...just really are not made to come out of things looking good in any way after the original trilogy.

That was the capstone, Luke redeems his Father, not through denial of his humanity, but embracing it.

 

[MGibster]

Really?! When I first watched it, it felt exactly like a Star Wars movie to me. More so than any of the prequels or sequels had. I feel like it really captures the spirit of the OT. It also has a distinct classic WW2 movie vibe (think The Guns of Navarone), which of course was one of the vibes Lucas was going for with his films.

That movie where Andor, one of the good guys, kills an ally so he doesn't fall into the hands of the Empire felt like a Star Wars movie for you? Even in A New Hope, while Han shoots first, it's because Greedo is pointing a blaster at him and threatening his life. Just on it's tone, Andor does not fit well with the other Star Wars movies. It's still good, but so very different in most ways.

 

[pukunui]

That movie where Andor, one of the good guys, kills an ally so he doesn't fall into the hands of the Empire felt like a Star Wars movie for you? Even in A New Hope, while Han shoots first, it's because Greedo is pointing a blaster at him and threatening his life. Just on it's tone, Andor does not fit well with the other Star Wars movies. It's still good, but so very different in most ways.

Yeah, look - I know a lot of people didn't like the idea that the rebels would employ spies, assassins, and saboteurs, but it made sense to me. Especially if you think of Rogue One as a WW2 movie in space. Andor's actions would not be out of place in occupied Paris, where the Allied spy is being hunted by the Nazis and has to kill his wounded compatriot so the Nazis can't capture and interrogate him.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Part of me just wants to go back to a time when the Jedi weren't so well defined and they were the peacekeeping guardians of the galaxy. I prefer that to an order bumbling around and separating children from their parents. But that's not going to happen.

Seems like the best way to do this would be by going FORWARDS not "back". Have Rey (and potentially Ahsoka and others) re-found a Jedi order that doesn't follow the rules of the older Jedi order, and has a more positive and active mandate.

It's also worth noting whilst "peacemaking" is generally a good thing, it isn't always, because it can also be in the support of oppressive, unrepresentative, or corrupt regimes or systems which fail to change and adapt and are thus worthless to the people they claim to represent.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm fine with a Good/Bad = Jedi/Sith breakdown. I grew up on the original Star Wars, but even the first of the 2nd trilogy, I found myself going 'ah so this is how it all goes sideways for Anakin'. How the premise of controlling ones emotions, avoiding the 'Dark Side' to me has just been so painfully, poorly, done.

And the weirdest thing, is that the very obvious inspirations for Lucas, provide the answer, and its just not been done. It really does read to me like he completely misunderstood what he was using as the basis for the Jedi world view.

I don't think so.

I think you're misunderstanding Lucas. I mean, he's the one who came up with the Jedi, he's not misunderstanding his own work, for god's sake, he's a bit of a kook but he's not stupid.

I think rather what people struggle with is that Lucas thought that for the Jedi to have failed to have to stop the Sith, especially when there were only two "real" Sith, LOGICALLY, the Jedi must have SCREWED THE POOCH lol.

And then Lucas thought about how the Jedi screwed the pooch, and frankly, what he came up with makes a tremendous amount of intuitive sense. Humans are not good at locking down their emotions in the way the Jedi demand, and the Jedi have too staid and pushy for their own good.

many (many!) of which come from the ancient past

This is true but let's not for one second pretend many (many!) similar deals from "the ancient past" are total and complete "fail" in the same regards, full of absolutely awful and stupid ideas about how you should control and deny yourself. That the Jedi are on a bad course because of that should not surprise you, given historical examples. I'll avoid specifics but there are an awful lot of ascetic groups in history and the present, across many religions and belief structures, that if given lightsabers, Force powers, and a mandate of "make the world a better place", would do a much WORSE job than the Jedi!

As an aside, even stuff like mindfulness, as practiced in certain ways, has been shown to be very damaging to some people, especially as 90% of people who teach it are not amazing Bodhisattvas but like, just random people full of failings, prejudice and ignorance.

 

[Scribe]

I think rather what people struggle with is that Lucas thought that for the Jedi to have failed to have to stop the Sith, especially when there were only two "real" Sith, LOGICALLY, the Jedi must have SCREWED THE POOCH lol.

And then Lucas thought about how the Jedi screwed the pooch, and frankly, what he came up with makes a tremendous amount of intuitive sense. Humans are not good at locking down their emotions in the way the Jedi demand, and the Jedi have too staid and pushy for their own good.

This could be part of it for sure, but I guess I just struggle with the timeline of it all. How long were the Jedi 'functional' how long were they actually the ascendant, wise, and trusted organization? Were they locking down their emotions the whole time?

I agree, that it makes sense that this is how it all could go belly up, the problem I think I have here is that seemingly this whole 'just suppress your emotions/thoughts/feelings/attachment to others' would have worked at all.

 

[Stormonu]

That movie where Andor, one of the good guys, kills an ally so he doesn't fall into the hands of the Empire felt like a Star Wars movie for you? Even in A New Hope, while Han shoots first, it's because Greedo is pointing a blaster at him and threatening his life. Just on it's tone, Andor does not fit well with the other Star Wars movies. It's still good, but so very different in most ways.

Other than the Hangar fight scene, I absolutely hated Andor (and Kenobi...). It didn't feel like Star Wars at all.

I have nothing against there being deeper hints that some of the aspects of the Jedi / Sith have deep/dark connotations, but I don't want a bunch of navel-staring introspection in my Star Wars - save that stuff for Star Trek where its better suited. Star Wars, is to me, about action-adventure and upstanding good vs. obvious evil. It doesn't have to be cartoonishly played out, but I'd like it more as something you can contemplate when you step back after the fireworks from the show are over and think about how truly diabolic something like the Empire can be.

 

[MarkB]

Seems like the best way to do this would be by going FORWARDS not "back". Have Rey (and potentially Ahsoka and others) re-found a Jedi order that doesn't follow the rules of the older Jedi order, and has a more positive and active mandate.

Well then, while we're going forwards, maybe leave the name "Jedi" in the past too, just so as not to be tempted back into old ways.