D&D 5E [ToA] Hex-crawling and Long Rests

[Sacrosanct]

We have been playing 5e for the last three years. We have run wilderness games before and we already know they don't work the way we want them to. I have read through ToA and there is nothing in there that will make 0-2 combat encounters per long rest balanced or interesting to run, and there is nothing that will prevent the PCs from taking approximately one long rest per adventuring day if you go by RAW.

It's wonderful that you don't experience these issues in your wilderness campaigns, but unfortunately because you don't experience these issues you have nothing to contribute to this thread.

I promise you, the people in this thread looking for solutions have actually experienced the problems they describe. Please just take our word for it.

Um...that's fine, but that has nothing to do with what I said that you quoted. What you quoted was in response to Capnzapp saying all the challenges are trivial because of spell x, y, and z, when in fact, the PCs won't have access to half the spells he listed*, and for the other half, they will have to decide to spend their valuable few spell slots on and not have them for combat. Not to mention it relies on the assumption that his party will be half full of clerics and paladins anyway...


*bears repeating, and he would know this if he read the book, but all the harsh jungle challenges in ToA are meant for tier 1 play. Not only does it flat out state that, but it's also obvious by the design that by the time the PCs hit tier 2, the focus will be on Omu and the other dungeon areas, and they don't really want your gaming table spending as much time working through the slog of the jungle.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Isn't there a time limit? In the HC the PCs' patron is wasting away. Taking a slow-boat approach to inch through the jungle doesn't work since it's dozens of hexes (hundreds of miles) between Port Nyanzaru and the objective location through hostile territory. And that's assuming they know where their objective is and can take the straightest route to it without issue.

I would emphasize story-based reasons for urging player action over artificial limitations that appear to break basic game assumptions and player agency. It puts players off to hear DMs say, "Well, yeah, you do that thing that the rules explicitly say should work the way you assert, but I'm the DM and that's too easy..."

Yes. You have 78 days to complete the adventure or Syndra dies. Well, I suppose if you're OK with her dying, then you can take as long as you want. Not all that heroic... And seeing as how the jungle is HUGE, and very slow going, it would behoove the PCs to move with a sense of urgency, and taking long rests won't happen nearly as often as people may be used to (very frequent random encounters, environment won't provide the comfort needed, time is of the essence, etc)

 

[CapnZapp]

Um...that's fine, but that has nothing to do with what I said that you quoted. What you quoted was in response to Capnzapp saying all the challenges are trivial because of spell x, y, and z, when in fact, the PCs won't have access to half the spells he listed*, and for the other half, they will have to decide to spend their valuable few spell slots on and not have them for combat. Not to mention it relies on the assumption that his party will be half full of clerics and paladins anyway...


*bears repeating, and he would know this if he read the book, but all the harsh jungle challenges in ToA are meant for tier 1 play. Not only does it flat out state that, but it's also obvious by the design that by the time the PCs hit tier 2, the focus will be on Omu and the other dungeon areas, and they don't really want your gaming table spending as much time working through the slog of the jungle.

Take it to another thread.

You have no business telling me what spells my player characters have access to.

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[CapnZapp]

I would emphasize story-based reasons

Is there *ever* a case where you would consider alternatives?

If this single solution is all you can suggest, and never anything else, then thank you, but I want more options than one.



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[Sacrosanct]

Take it to another thread.

You have no business telling me what spells my player characters have access to.

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Level 1-4 PCs don't have access to third level spells. The fact that you take that statement to mean I'm telling you how to play is mind boggling. I mean, I suppose you could give a level 3 PC level 3 spells (technically you can do whatever you want, including giving all your PCs laser guns and jet fighters). But unless you specifically state how you are completely tossing out the rules, people will assume you're playing the game as it's designed.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Is there *ever* a case where you would consider alternatives?

If this single solution is all you can suggest, and never anything else, then thank you, but I want more options than one.

Well, I did...

Not sure why I'd place cumbersome long rest requirements in Chult. There are plenty of people who live there who get a long rest every night, after all. Add in exhaustion options from travel and encumbrance, plus the possibility of encounters during a rest, plus environmentals like insects and it's already a tough location. Smart groups will likely figure out ways to be comfortable - Leomund's Tiny Hut springs immediately to mind.

To me the challenges will be things like navigation. The party will be keeping track of their location based on the Player Map but I will be keeping track based on my map, based on their navigation rolls. Barring a good Ranger in the group, it will be very likely that after a while the two will not match up...

Then there's food & water. I'll be tracking how the PCs are getting both. Since it rains every day, potable water should be easy to gather. Food will quickly spoil, however, unless stored in a protected manner (bag of holding or the like) - probably something like 10% a day after 5 days for typical rations. So they'll need to find ways to gather food - usually a full day activity with a somewhat high DC for success.

Disease will be an issue, too. Though a good cleric or druid in the party pretty much eliminates that worry with Lesser Restoration.

And got this response.

This is about making the game of D&D work. Please discuss the realism issues elsewhere.

Excuse me if I think your request for more 'options' is rather skewed to a single approach.

 

[CapnZapp]

Excuse me if I think your request for more 'options' is rather skewed to a single approach.

This particular thread is about ways to implement a mechanical framework that ensures "enough" encounters between long rests to make the game challenging.

After all these pages, not to mention the numerous attempts to derail the thread, I can't believe this is news to you.

Therefore I ask that if your agenda is counter to mine that you start a thread of your own.

Thank you.



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[Tony Vargas]

Ha ha, you jest...

I'm keep'n it light, but yeah, an average of 7 could as easily include a 13-encounter day as a 1-encounter day. The more the campaign tends to shore up the low end (bring the number of encounters on days that have any encounters at all closer to 6), the more it can back off the high end (bring the busiest adventuring days down closer to 8).

Isn't there a time limit?

Oh, of course. Always.

(now I'm jesting)

 

[TwoSix]

Oh, of course. Always.

(now I'm jesting)

Considering how time limits fix pretty much everything, I'm surprised they didn't put a stopwatch in the Red Box.

 

[Quickleaf]

I seem to recall something like this back during the OotA discussions; essentially coupling one terrain table with one encounter table. Perhaps it was you whose posts I read...?

Possibly! Ultimately, you may prefer a more mechanistic solution. But I don't think my suggestion is mutually exclusive by any means; actually, it may support some of the ideas you've presented.

Let me dig up what I did before....

https://www.icloud.com/numbers/000LUyAkAAFeENY3nQC8_13vQ#Underdark_Encounters

Chance of Random Encounters/Environments
Roll d20 (once per 4 hours, or twice/thrice per day, at DM discretion), making a roll on the "Encounter / Environment Features" table if check reaches target number described below:

20+ Sanctuary
18+ Frontier/Neutral Settlement
17+ Unexplored Wilds
15+ Hostile Wilds/Settlement

Encounter / Environment Features Table (d100)
1-50% 1x Encounter
51-56% 1x Encounter 1x Feature
57-61% 2x Encounter
62-71% 1x Feature (with +25% on roll)
72-81% 1x Feature (with +50% on roll)
82-86% 1x Encounter 1x Feature (with +50% on roll)
87-91% 2x Encounter 2x Feature (once with +25% and once with +50%)
92-96% Recurring Merchant
97-00% Weird Stuff

Encounter (d1000)
I used these guidelines in assembling Underdark encounter tables acc. to specific terrain types (e.g. Chasms, Dead Caves, Mines, Mushroom Forests, etc). Could be applied towards expanding Chult tables if one wanted.

1-500% Common monsters (50% chance)
501-800% Uncommon monsters (30% chance)
801-940% Rare monsters (14% chance)
941-1000% Very rare monsters (6% chance)

Environment Feature (d100)
I used these guidelines in assembling Underdark encounter tables acc. to specific terrain types (e.g. Chasms, Dead Caves, Mines, Mushroom Forests, etc). Could be applied towards expanding Chult tables if one wanted.

1-50% common (plants, flavor) (50% chance)
51-75 uncommon (hazards) (25% chance)
76-90 rare (hazards or wondrous) (15% chance)
91-99 very rare (wondrous) (9% chance)
100+ roll two more times on this table, with no bonuses on the two additional rolls (1%+ chance)


Reaction Table (2d6)
Use this when you're not sure how monsters would respond to PCs, or when you have two groups of monsters in same encounter to determine how they interact with one another. The DM can add up to +/-4 based on the type of monster or circumstances.

2-5 Hostile
6-8 Cautious/Indifferent
9-12 Friendly/Willing to trade

Natural Doubles
1's The monster takes hostile or violent action because of an outside influence. Perhaps the monster is charmed, rabid, insane, acting under compulsion from another creature that is holding its young hostage, etc. [Carl's suggestion for additional seed info: If the monster is intelligent, it may have specific information on the PCs or their motives, or may have been tracking the party with intent to mislead, deceive or ambush them. Possibly has set a trap for the PCs, and/or has magical item or psionic abilities that it plans to use against the party.]
2’s Something happened recently to make the monster angry and hostile to the world in general. Negotiation is unlikely to succeed unless it resolves the cause of this underlying anger.
3’s The monster would prefer to be aggressive toward the party, but something holds it in check. Perhaps it is acting under orders, has taken a vow, or is favorably disposed to one aspect of the PCs’ appearance despite hating the rest.
4’s The monster would be favorably inclined to the party except for one nagging detail. Perhaps it is prejudiced against one particular party member, or upset about a past action of the PCs.
5’s Something happened recently to make the monster happy and well-disposed to everyone it meets. Negotiation is likely to succeed unless the PCs seem inclined to take away the thing that is making the monster happy (a pile of treasure, a tasty human baby).
6’s The monster receives the party enthusiastically due to mistaken identity or a belief that they fulfill a prophesy. All will go well as long as the PCs continue to conform to the monster’s expectations.