The Willingness to Embrace Joy in Things.

[Scribe]

I have been using forums since they were BBSes, so I don't really put ENWorld in the same category as other social media.

Me neither, but its not worth the loss of joy to debate it with others.

 

[TwoSix]

The most meaningful differences are only in scale. First, the place is small enough that we can at least make a significant attempt at human moderation. Second, when human moderation isn't applied, the place is small enough for your user name to be recognized, over time, such that some amount of social consequences can apply to bad behavior.

Certainly for me, the smaller scale and sense of community fostered here is a meaningful distinction. If I made a witty point on Twitter (back when I used it), my hope was to generate a lot of likes and reactions. Here, I'm hoping to provoke engagement from the coterie of posters I'm become familiar with through years of interactions.

I like here more, sure, but I like here more because having a tight community feels DIFFERENT than the anonymous digital oceans of Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook; even though Facebook literally has my name on it.

 

[Reynard]

So, I'd be careful there. There's going to be a tendency to classify the things you/we like in a more positive light than things you/we don't.

EN World is, fundamentally, still social media. Pretty much every ugly or unfortunate dynamic seen on those other venues is observable here.

The most meaningful differences are only in scale. First, the place is small enough that we can at least make a significant attempt at human moderation. Second, when human moderation isn't applied, the place is small enough for your user name to be recognized, over time, such that some amount of social consequences can apply to bad behavior.

Agreed, but I still think of forums as fundamentally different than FB or Twitter or Discord or even reddit -- primarily because we can have long meaningful conversations that we can go back to days, weeks or even months and years later. None of those other venues offer that kind of continuity of discussion.

 

[Zaukrie]

What a great post, that I struggle with for many reasons. I do find more joy in many parts of my life than I did, but I have a strong logical streak that occasionally gets in the way, among other things. Good luck to keeping it going. While I choose to be generally happy with my world, I do worry about a few things here and there that make that more difficult...

 

[Zaukrie]

Also, I struggle mightily with fandoms.... And even I sometimes fall into the trap. I've stopped going to several threads here, and entire sites on the web, because of toxicity.

 

[Umbran]

Agreed, but I still think of forums as fundamentally different than FB or Twitter or Discord or even reddit -- primarily because we can have long meaningful conversations that we can go back to days, weeks or even months and years later. None of those other venues offer that kind of continuity of discussion.

Sure, discussions can go on for long periods, but most don't. So I can't see this as terribly "fundamental" in terms of whether it counts as "social media".

 

[Staffan]

Sure, discussions can go on for long periods, but most don't. So I can't see this as terribly "fundamental" in terms of whether it counts as "social media".

The big difference between a forum like ENWorld and a site like Facebook or Reddit is, well, you guys. There's also a somewhat higher threshold before joining the discussion – in order to be part of a discussion here, I had to find the site and make an account. And if I act like a bleep, y'all can throw me out. By comparison, Facebook continually throws things in front of me that their Algorithm thinks I'm interested in and hopes I will engage with (and by "hopes I will engage with" I mean "has calculated has a pretty good chance of making me angry enough to post a comment").

The forum software also makes sure to keep relevant things in focus: when someone makes a post, that threads gets put on the top. That is generally not true on Facebook – I'm sure there's some reasoning behind what order Facebook shows me posts in, but it's definitely not chronological. Sometimes an 8-day old post which was last commented on gets put like third from the top, without any rhyme or reason.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And that is the larger point: you can choose to find joy in things. I tried to explain this to my son who was perpetually frustrated (except on Avatar). Whether you are walking through Galaxy's Edge or watching Star Trek or playing D&D, you can choose to release the cynicism and negativity and embrace the craft and illusion and find real joy in these fantasies and these worlds.

I don't personally think it's as simple as that.

I do think that it's sensible and reasonable to lean into experiencing the moment and so on, but I think of a smart, reasonable people get condemning or sneered at for not "embracing joy" as you put it, but that's not what's actually happening. In a lot of cases, there can just be too many barriers or snags to being in that state, ones that cannot be dismissed by a simple act of will.

Like, I enjoy a lot of dumb movies and dumb Shonen anime, and some pretty dumb and even kind of mediocre videogames (hello Diablo IV), and part of how I can is that none of them throw up particularly high barriers to my being able to "embrace joy" as you put it, with them. There are others that I'd like to enjoy, but they've got too many problems which I can't just "unsee". I can turn my brain down, but I can't remove my morality or decency, nor can I entirely remove my ability to perceive flaws (and also solutions to flaws). It's best when what flaws there are, are either meaningless (however severe they might be on a careful analysis - plenty of fun dumb movies have gigantic plot holes, for example) because they're irrelevant to the bulk of what's going on, or where they're just very few in number, and not severe.

For example - I'm watching Evil right now, and it's pretty dumb at times, and contains some stuff I kind of disagree with, but the presentation is so smooth and so good, the acting (getting Katja Herbers from Europe was great - she just wildly out-acts a lot of actors, in a good way), the editing, the cinematography, even stuff like the lighting is so solid that it doesn't become a problem to my enjoyment. Good pacing and not wasting our time on annoying scenes much helps too. Further, the problems it does have tend not to be severe, which makes them easier to just roll past - the writers have pretty good judgement, for money, for how to land semi-controversial things.

(The weakest points so far have been mostly with characters who generally behave intelligently - moreso than is typical in horror shows - embracing the idiot ball for the sake of plot, but that's basically one episode and one repeating subplot in the 1.75 seasons I've watched so far, which is pretty good!)

But there can just be too much stupidity, or the problems can be just too severe and nagging to overlook. Compare Pacific Rim and Pacific Rim: Uprising (the sequel). The first one is a dumb, extremely stylish movie, with really bad pacing, some hilariously bad-but-fun dialogue, and absolutely rocking robot fights and which ultimately worked really well for me! The second one is even dumber, not as stylish, and whilst the pacing is better, the actual plot is just so awful, and the characters not very engaging (despite John Boyega, who is pretty good at making characters engaging on thin material), and so even though it's a giant robot movie, I just can't get into it, I can't "embrace the joy" with it. The barrier is too high. I get knocked out of my "fun zone", as it were.

And look, I get it, for some people tearing apart some media or game IS the way they find joy in it. Good for them. But to me focusing on the flaws is the opposite of finding joy.

MST3K not doing it for you?

Because I think tearing stuff apart is generally only "finding joy" when it's very very bad. So bad it is genuinely funny how bad it is. Or where there's something really engaging or intriguing about breaking down exactly why something doesn't work.

Also, and I feel like our society doesn't acknowledge this enough - sometimes recognising the flaws in a thing is actually a good way to find joy in either what's left of that thing, or to find other things which will give you real joy. It's not a purely destructive act in the way people dismissively think - it's an inquisitive act. You're learning, and it's driven by curiosity and a desire to know more. Now, to be clear, I'm talking about analytical breakdowns here, not just "X SUCKS!!!" rants, there's rarely much value in that beyond catharsis (which is still an important thing at times, emotionally). But in breaking down why I or others dislike certain elements of certain games or shows, or whatever, or why they seem not to work, I can learn things, and I think sometimes can help others learn things, which lead to people having better ideas about what actually will bring joy for them. Or just how to engage with something in a way that lessens annoyance and increases joy. Like with 5E, by discussing its (significant) flaws, I realized that most of them are more of an issue for me "DM side", so by simply avoiding DMing it, and just playing it, I can have a much better time.

But I just don't find it to be as simple as "embrace joy". Then again, hilarious as this might be from my posts, I am a person whose natural state is quite close to joyful, or at least mirthful. If a media product is really annoying me, it's usually because I can't find a way to make it fun, particularly if I had wanted to.

(d20 Modern was an example of this - I loved the concept, the art, and the general aesthetic, and I wanted to just enjoy the game, but there were just too many snags, too many things I couldn't turn a blind eye to, because they just kept coming up over and over when I actually played it.)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Agreed, but I still think of forums as fundamentally different than FB or Twitter or Discord or even reddit -- primarily because we can have long meaningful conversations that we can go back to days, weeks or even months and years later. None of those other venues offer that kind of continuity of discussion.

I agree forums are built around longer form discussion. They also aren't as reliant on scoring points with zingers as social media is

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This was going to be an edit but it go long so this is a follow-up to my above post:

I would also say ADHD can be a genuine asset to embracing joy. Like, I forget dumb/bad/annoying things pretty easily compared to most people!

And on the flipside, looking at friends and family, it's very clear to me that the biggest bar to "embracing joy" isn't cynicism or real reluctance, let alone an enjoyment of tearing thing apart. At all. I dunno if cynicism is even top 10. What I see as the leading issues are anxiety, stress and, well, forms of PTSD, possibly OCD as well but perhaps mainly because it's so good at leading to anxiety. This is part of why I do feel some real caution is warranted with the "just let it go!" model of embracing joy - because a lot of people absolutely want to do that, but have been/are being so harried by life and stuff that they actually DO need to worry about, like are they going to make rent, is their kid or pet sick, and so on. I think when you're enjoying basic financial stability (which doesn't necessarily mean wealth, but stability, and not having to worry about income or costs much, because they're basically under control), when people in your life are healthy, when you aren't dealing with abusive people in your life (who are sometimes unavoidable because they're at work or whatever), when you don't have to deal with significant, recurrent anxiety and stress, it's just a lot easier to "embrace joy".

Like, people say money can't buy happiness - but it's a half truth. It's more like, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. But if he's by water, at least he could drink. And a lot of people aren't really "by water" in this context! If they were, they would drink! But equally some people are wealthy, healthy, safe and just have a lot of difficulty embracing joy - including some friends, and in my experience that tends to revolve around them forcing themselves to do stuff they just don't enjoy because of rules or limits they enforce upon themselves, rules that may or may not benefit them in various ways, but sure don't help with joy. I could detail a lot of examples, but I feel like there's just so much more to this than merely willing it to happen for so many people.

Again, ADHD means this is mostly not the problem I deal with, because I am very good at forgetting my troubles even when I totally should not! Masterful at it even! But I feel like for most people, that's not an easy thing, and most people who seem unable to take joy in stuff, it's because things are hard for them, or they've been messed up by stuff, not because they're failing to "embrace joy". And even where that is the main thing, often it's difficult-to-escape societal or relationship that's causing that.

Sorry I'll stop going on sophomorically now lol.