D&D 5E the shield warrior - better than some think?

[Ancalagon]

Well one of the two weapons you can do this with is a quaterstaff ..... which has two butt ends.

The other is a spear and I don't see either of these as cheesy. Frankly I think using a Halberd like that is much cheesier.

Using a quarter staff or spear's butt end makes sense... if you are wielding it two handed! One handed, it beggars belief.

 

[Ancalagon]

Another advantage of sword and board is in magic items. I know magic items can sometimes be like fight club or Bruno (we don't talk about magic items). But most campaigns have them, and some of those campaigns generate random magic items. And one handed weapons are much more likely to come up than a pole arm or hand crossbow or even a greatsword. The good old reliable longsword +1 is likely to come up fairly early if you're using a published adventure. And a +1 shield comes up sometimes too.

and if I remember, +1 shields are more common than +1 armor...

 

[Ancalagon]

Not really. With two-handed polearms there is no cheese, obviously, and with staves and spears you can use them with one hand and still twirl them to attack with both ends--so, no cheese at all.

The Achilles vs. Hector fight in the movie Troy shows this very well IMO.


If you haven't seen it, watch Achilles attacking at 1:18. He uses a spear and shield, and spins the butt end of the spear around to attack as well as thrusting with the spear tip.

Many martial arts show quarterstaffs being used one-handed and spun to strike with the non-dominant end.

EDIT: I will comment however, that the butt-end attack should just be d4 without ability modifier to damage IMO unless the PC is using it two-handed and has the TWF style. I know JC ruled you are supposed to add STR (or DEX for monks) to the d4, but definitely used one-handed for such maneuvers I don't feel you can get the leverage really for the bonus damage.

I do agree with you that the damage would be weak - and you are at serious risk of being disarmed when twirling around the spear like that. Sure it looks cool, but I find this very, very not convincing... I'm going to re-watch it in slow motion to see if I can get more out of the segment.

edit: I stopped watching it because how silly it is. This is NOT how you use a shield!

 

[Helldritch]

Just do like me and allow a shield master to use his bonus action between attacks to push or prone an enemy.
You will be surprise at how much the GWM will be happy to have such a nice friend.
The archer and the other range will not be so happy...

 

[Ancalagon]

Yea slight mismatch of flavor and mechanics with those 2 lol.

He was a "warrior-scholar" - it went well with the good int of a psi warrior. But he had spent years researching giants (in our version of the campaign, the PCs were survivors of a giant attack in the past, re-joined to face the return of the giant threat), so when he was reborn, it made stylistic sense that he took RK. It... wasn't the best "fit" mechanically speaking, but I made it work (also, the damage reduction of a psi warrior was not so great vs the ridiculous damage a giant can do, the RK damage prevention are better).

 

[DND_Reborn]

edit: I stopped watching it because how silly it is. This is NOT how you use a shield!

Out of curiosity at what point was this? There is that section around the 2 minute mark where Achilles has his shield held at his back (sort of), is that the part? At this section Achilles is using his shield this way to toy with Hector and show his general distain for him.

Otherwise, I thought this was a fairly good video showing individual shield use since they use it for striking, shoves, trips, trapping weapons, as well as general defense...

If you feel otherwise, do you have any examples of what you consider how to use a shield??

 

[Ancalagon]

Out of curiosity at what point was this? There is that section around the 2 minute mark where Achilles has his shield held at his back (sort of), is that the part? At this section Achilles is using his shield this way to toy with Hector and show his general distain for him.

Otherwise, I thought this was a fairly good video showing individual shield use since they use it for striking, shoves, trips, trapping weapons, as well as general defense...

If you feel otherwise, do you have any examples of what you consider how to use a shield??

I took about 3 years of medieval sword fighting (not SCA, something parallel to HEMA), and we did sword and shield a lot - I would in fact say that this is the style I'm the most familiar with (I even made my own shield haha).

The goal of the shield is to deny angles of attack to your opponent. A swordfight is, in many ways, a fight for the centre - you want to be in such a position that hitting your opponent is easy while - due to positioning - them hitting you is hard/impossible. If you don't have the centre and you swing at your foe, they might hit your in return - and a double kill is no way to swordfight. Remember, you don't have 100 hp, a single sword blow, properly place, could be fatal.

So moving your shield out of position to attack is foolish, and using it to attack even more so. In fact, part of the art of mastering the shield is learning how to attack and keep your shield in position. And these shields metal are heavy - ok sure, maybe someone like freaking Achilles can use it like that, but irl these shield bash with the edge are slow and expose you terribly.

So for example, look at the dodge at 1:06 , followed by Achilles trying a shield bash with the edge at 1:07. Had Hector's footwork not been so inept, Achilles is WIDE OPEN. His spear is on the other side, his shield is up high as is his arm. Hector could have stabbed him right in the side of the torso, maybe even in the unarmored armpit! But Hector's footwork and block are inept, leaving him open too - but Achilles just... runs on.

Then at 1:14 there is this running leap with a spear trust, very dramatic... except that the spear trust is right at the middle of the shield. Why hit at the middle of your opponent's defence? And it wasn't some kind of opening move, a combo, Hector just staggered back as Achilles watch. Had Hector turned his shield slightly, the trust would have been deflected and he would have had absorbed a lot less of the impact of the blow - AND HE COULD HAVE STABBED ACHILLES MID AIR.

I'll note at 1:18 that there is an interesting block by Hector. Low attacks to the legs are not normally parried by the shield like that (your legs can move fast, it opens you up) but for a moment, he pins Achille's spear to the ground, and, for... no reason I can discern, Achilles's shield is (once again), out of alignment and is basically wide open. HECTOR COULD HAVE STABBED HIM THERE TOO but once again, Hector seems incapable of doing much but stagger around.

These fights are... done for entertainment, for drama. And that's ok! we want to be entertained right? But, they aren't realistic, and should be used as "evidence" of how these weapons were used with great caution.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The goal of the shield is to deny angles of attack to your opponent. A swordfight is, in many ways, a fight for the centre - you want to be in such a position that hitting your opponent is easy while - due to positioning - them hitting you is hard/impossible. If you don't have the centre and you swing at your foe, they might hit your in return - and a double kill is no way to swordfight. Remember, you don't have 100 hp, a single sword blow, properly place, could be fatal.

So moving your shield out of position to attack is foolish, and using it to attack even more so. In fact, part of the art of mastering the shield is learning how to attack and keep your shield in position. And these shields metal are heavy - ok sure, maybe someone like freaking Achilles can use it like that, but irl these shield bash with the edge are slow and expose you terribly.

I'd just point out that not all sword and shield styles are the same and there's good evidence the Vikings often used their round shields edge on to the opponent, trying to control the center along the diagonal axis with the shield and sometimes thrusting to keep the opponent's head and sword above that line leaving them vulnerable to your sword. Which isn't the same at all as Achilles in Troy.

But then depending on your mythological sources Achilles may have been invulnerable other than on the ankle.

 

[DND_Reborn]

First, thanks for your analysis, it was interesting to read.

But to address a few points:

So moving your shield out of position to attack is foolish, and using it to attack even more so.

There is historical evidence showing about how shields were used offensively, so I would not call attacking with your shield "foolish". Perhaps in the way they did it in the video, maybe, but shields certainly could be and were used offensively.

So for example, look at the dodge at 1:06 , followed by Achilles trying a shield bash with the edge at 1:07. Had Hector's footwork not been so inept, Achilles is WIDE OPEN. His spear is on the other side, his shield is up high as is his arm. Hector could have stabbed him right in the side of the torso, maybe even in the unarmored armpit! But Hector's footwork and block are inept, leaving him open too - but Achilles just... runs on.

I think it was more about demonstrating Achilles' power and it forced Hector off balance. And although Achilles may appear wide open, his skill is so superior he would dodge any counter-attack, so also feels confident to attack with his shield and leave himself "open".

Then at 1:14 there is this running leap with a spear trust, very dramatic... except that the spear trust is right at the middle of the shield. Why hit at the middle of your opponent's defence? And it wasn't some kind of opening move, a combo, Hector just staggered back as Achilles watch. Had Hector turned his shield slightly, the trust would have been deflected and he would have had absorbed a lot less of the impact of the blow - AND HE COULD HAVE STABBED ACHILLES MID AIR.

If you watch this part carefully you'll see Hector raises his shield to meet the spear strike, not Achilles simply thrusting into Hector's shield. His defense is out of position because the attack might be unorthodox. This sort of "death from above" strike was used by Achilles early in the movie and appears to be a signature move. Again, Hector staggers back from the force of Achilles' strike. It also seems Hector is being more defensive because he is weary of Achilles' skill.

I'll note at 1:18 that there is an interesting block by Hector. Low attacks to the legs are not normally parried by the shield like that (your legs can move fast, it opens you up) but for a moment, he pins Achille's spear to the ground, and, for... no reason I can discern, Achilles's shield is (once again), out of alignment and is basically wide open. HECTOR COULD HAVE STABBED HIM THERE TOO but once again, Hector seems incapable of doing much but stagger around.

At 1:19 as they were standing Hector did try to stab Achilles, who dodged the attack...

These fights are... done for entertainment, for drama. And that's ok! we want to be entertained right? But, they aren't realistic, and should be used as "evidence" of how these weapons were used with great caution.

Agreed, they are entertaining! I think part of this scene is also taking into account the combatants. Achilles is a demi-god, a legend of legends. And although Hector is a legend and hero in his own way, it's obvious his ability is grossly inferior to Achilles.

At any rate, the scene still does show how a spear or staff used one-handed could be used to make the bonus action attack with the butt-end of the weapon. I completely agree that such attack should not be "very effective" and keeping them to just a d4 with no ability modifier makes the most sense to me.

 

[Ancalagon]

First, thanks for your analysis, it was interesting to read.

thank you

There is historical evidence showing about how shields were used offensively, so I would not call attacking with your shield "foolish". Perhaps in the way they did it in the video, maybe, but shields certainly could be and were used offensively.

It really depends on the type of shield - as @Neonchameleon pointed out, viking shield usage was different, and bucklers certainly were used differently too. However, the type of heavy shield protecting mostly the torso used in this film was fairly similar to the ones we used, and heavier too - 13 to 18 pounds if a quick googling is accurate.

At 1:19 as they were standing Hector did try to stab Achilles, who dodged the attack...

But why wait until Achilles' spear is free?

Agreed, they are entertaining! I think part of this scene is also taking into account the combatants. Achilles is a demi-god, a legend of legends. And although Hector is a legend and hero in his own way, it's obvious his ability is grossly inferior to Achilles.

At any rate, the scene still does show how a spear or staff used one-handed could be used to make the bonus action attack with the butt-end of the weapon. I completely agree that such attack should not be "very effective" and keeping them to just a d4 with no ability modifier makes the most sense to me.

See, I don't think it does because Achilles is not human, he's almost a demi god. I guess it depends if you think that D&D heroes should be heroes or superheroes?