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D&D (2024) The Cleric should be retired
- Thread starter Neonchameleon
- Start date
Vikingkingq
Adventurer
Doesn't that mean it's connecting more than an attack would normally, on average?
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Well...I don't know. I mean I really don't, people like to toss around percentages for hit rates when they talk about 5e, but in my current game, melee attacks rarely miss. Even at level 7, we face lots of enemies with about 14-15 AC. The Ranger and the Monk make multiple attacks each turn, and misses are infrequent. The Cleric has 16 Strength and 18 Wisdom and his warhammer is more reliable than his Sacred Flame
It's likely lower than 75%, but I didn't want to make it sound like it never works- the past few sessions he's been pleasantly surprised, but then again, it's not like 2d8 radiant damage does a lot to our foes.
I have no idea if his Domain gives him smite or empowered cantrips next level, that's probably the point that will make or break the cantrip for him.
Vikingkingq
Adventurer
IIRC, people have done the math and attacks connect 65% of the time on average.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
There are so many factors that could affect that though that you kind of have to take that with a grain of salt.
Neonchameleon
Legend
To be honest it's not like 1d8+4 damage (i.e. +1 warhammer with Str 16) does any more to your foes than 2d8. And you're attacking at +7 to hit (+3 prof, +3 Str, +1 warhammer) which against AC 14 means you need 7s so you hit 70% of the time. These numbers are basically within a rounding error of each other. And you're right that the domain will make a huge difference.
There is, however, a difference in feel between you rolling the attack roll and your opponent rolling the save. That's one thing about Eldritch Blast, Firebolt, and all of 4e; attacker rolls.
Vikingkingq
Adventurer
Right, that's what I was getting at - I think Sacred Flame is perfectly cromulent, we just have an incorrect perception because of player rolls vs. DM rolls.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
You can do a lot to boost your attack rolls in 5e. You can cast Bless, find various ways to get advantage, and so on. If the players are savvy, they can make their attack rolls very likely to succeed.
But there's precious little you can do to increase your save DC's. And there's good reason for this, since most of the things in the game with saving throws are attached to limited use resources that can have very potent effects, while most of the things that require hit rolls just deal damage.
Sacred Flame kind of falls in the cracks here- the damage it deals isn't really special. Sure, less things resist radiant than say, fire or cold, but it's not a huge deal (in fact, the fact it doesn't deal fire damage was a negative thing when we faced trolls, lol). It's effect against half or 3/4 cover is neat, but doesn't come up often enough (and of course, it's useless against full cover, since you can't target anything behind it). The fact that it's also save or nothing, rather than save for half doesn't help.
But what else are Clerics going to use? Toll the Dead also requires a saving throw, and it's useless against some creatures.
This is a longstanding issue with me, the lack of player-rolls attack cantrips for clerics. I get what Sacred Flame brings (no worries about being in melee, no concerns about cover), but it's bugged me since the playtest days of 5e, and it's (for me) it is what made the arcana cleric such a great subclass as something to play.
Vikingkingq
Adventurer
If it bothers you, I think the simplest fix is to give Starry Whisp to Clerics as well as Bards and Druids. They're pretty equivalent.
