D&D 5E Stacking martial classes levels for extra attack feature?

[Horwath]

I'm currently thinking of alowing levels of marial classes to stack for extra attack feature(2 attacks in attack action).

3rd and 4th attack at fighters levels 11 and 20 would remain as fighter only feature and would require normal fighter level for those features.

would fighter1/paladin1/ranger1/barbaria1/monk1 with 2 attacks overpowered as he has no ASI or any level 2 or 3 features?

 

[Blue]

What's your goal - why do you want to make this change? Having that spelled out can help you determine if this change is right for your table. Is it because you want to empower mixed martial classes over straight martial classes? Do you see martial classes more mechanics to mix and don't want to delay their level 5 power bump? Do you want more "realism"?

For my table, I'd have some reservations to address before adopting it.

1. With most classes there are power bumps at 5th and 11th, and part of the balance of multiclassing is that you delay getting to these. With this, you are giving the power bump to martial multiclass combos but caster multiclass combos are still missing on having 3rd level spells (a big deal). So this will be an uneven boost.

2. This makes dead levels - if you are multiclassing, 5th class level will have no features since you already got it at 5th character level. This (a) is disappointing when finally getting another level, and (b) will encourage people to stop before 5th level and so spread out to greater number of classes on a single character. I really don't like dead levels.

3. The level five boost getting delayed is part of the balancing of multiclassing. This does remove that for the martial classes.

4. Fighter is already a cherry-picking target, it gets a lot at 1st, 2nd and 3rd (and an ASI at 4th) - it seems like this would really encourage any martial character to grab a few fighter levels. Not a no-brainer becasue you are still delaying other class features, but with how tempting the early fighter features are I would expect to see a big uptick in it.

Also a procedural question: How do you deal with this with subclasses that get extra attack at 6th such as Bard(Valor) or Wizard(Bladesinger) if they are mixed with a martial class? Will you also make the change for when the Blade Pact Warlock can pick up their extra attack invocation if they multiclass martially?

 

[WarpedAcorn]

I'm currently thinking of alowing levels of marial classes to stack for extra attack feature(2 attacks in attack action).

3rd and 4th attack at fighters levels 11 and 20 would remain as fighter only feature and would require normal fighter level for those features.

would fighter1/paladin1/ranger1/barbaria1/monk1 with 2 attacks overpowered as he has no ASI or any level 2 or 3 features?

My suggestion would be to allow it, but only allow weapon damage on the extra attack(s) gained in this way. So, for instance, a Str 18 with a Longsword would get their first attack at 1d8+4, but the second attack at only 1d8. This preserves some "specialty" for players who have taken enough levels in a devoted class without devaluing that decision. It also keeps it somewhat on par with the SCAG Melee Cantrips, which scale with Character Level and not Caster Level.

 

[jgsugden]

I encourage all DMs to consider the specifics of the party and players and ask, "What is going to be more fun for this group?" when ideas like this appear. Go with what will be fun for your players, even if the books violate it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm currently thinking of alowing levels of marial classes to stack for extra attack feature(2 attacks in attack action).

3rd and 4th attack at fighters levels 11 and 20 would remain as fighter only feature and would require normal fighter level for those features.

The balance among the non- and half-casters who rely on Extra Attack for damage scaling is not as simple nor consistent as it could have been (look at cantrip scaling, that's simple and consistent), especially considering that they're less complicated, by nature, than the full-caster classes.

I suppose simply stacking those first 5 levels in any class that gets Extra attack could work. Having fighter count as full levels and other classes fractionally could also work. Whether you go with an option like that, or with leaving the 11th and 20th level Extra Attacks fighter-only features, mostly-fighter PCs will pay a high, if likely theoretical since few games ever get to 11th let alone 20th, cost for MCing.

would fighter1/paladin1/ranger1/barbaria1/monk1 with 2 attacks overpowered as he has no ASI or any level 2 or 3 features?

Don't see how.

3. The level five boost getting delayed is part of the balancing of multiclassing. This does remove that for the martial classes.

It's really not. If it were, cantrips would scale on 'caster level' instead of character level.

Fighter is already a cherry-picking target, it gets a lot at 1st, 2nd and 3rd (and an ASI at 4th) - it seems like this would really encourage any martial character to grab a few fighter levels. Not a no-brainer becasue you are still delaying other class features, but with how tempting the early fighter features are I would expect to see a big uptick in it.

Nod. OTOH, the idea that a Ranger, say, MCing a couple levels of fighter becomes worse at fighting than a single-class ranger is a little un-intuitive.

Also a procedural question: How do you deal with this with subclasses that get extra attack at 6th such as Bard(Valor) or Wizard(Bladesinger) if they are mixed with a martial class?

Extra attack at 6th instead of 5th? Sounds like levels in the sub-class after the first should count. So Bladesinger 4 contributes 3 levels towards stacking Extra Attack. Or, it could be fractional, and a smaller fraction than Rangers/Pallies/Barbs...

Will you also make the change for when the Blade Pact Warlock can pick up their extra attack invocation if they multiclass martially?

It's an invocation, so presumably not.

 

[Satyrn]

Try it.

 

[Blue]

Try it.

That was a reply to me but I'm not to sure what. If it's to try allowing Extra Attack to stack, I have no goal about 5e that that would further. Also the change should probably be for an entire campaign since it affects how characters are built.

 

[Xeviat]

Level 10 and then 15-20 would be the only levels a 5/5/5/5 would have more attacks than a base fighter. A fighter (Arcane trickster), Monk, Paladin, Ranger would be an unusual character, but you'd have 5 attacks, a fair amount of spells (as a 6th level wizard) for smites, along with the ability to stack hunter's mark and a few flurries and an action surge ... it would probably be too much.

I've been thinking about changing multiclassing to require be selection of a level 0 that gets you some of the benefits of a class since 1st level often gives a lot.


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[Phazonfish]

Level 10 and then 15-20 would be the only levels a 5/5/5/5 would have more attacks than a base fighter. A fighter (Arcane trickster), Monk, Paladin, Ranger would be an unusual character, but you'd have 5 attacks, a fair amount of spells (as a 6th level wizard) for smites, along with the ability to stack hunter's mark and a few flurries and an action surge ... it would probably be too much.

I've been thinking about changing multiclassing to require be selection of a level 0 that gets you some of the benefits of a class since 1st level often gives a lot.


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I think you are misunderstanding the original post (or maybe I am). I think Horwath is proposing that "levels in classes that grant the Extra Attack feature stack for the purpose of determining when you get your second attack" not "each instance of Extra Attack you have grants an additional attack." Also, I think you meant eldritch knight, not arcane trickster.

 

[Volund]

I don't think your idea is game breaking. You are just house-ruling that once they have accumulated a total of 5 martial classes, they get Extra Attack. Since there are a lot of goodies to be had from 1 level dips already, I would suggest one change:

Allow the player to trade your feature, which I will call "Additional Martial Training" for one of the other abilities gained at the first class level. For example, upon dipping into a level of fighter they could choose to trade a fighting style or Second Wind for Additional Martial Training. You could even slice it thinner than that, letting Second Wind recharge on a LR instead of a SR. Maybe a dip into Barbarian would allow trading Additional Martial Training for one rage/day, +2 rage damage, or Unarmored Defense.

My first character using your rules would be a strength-based rogue: Barbarian 2/Fighter 3/Rogue X. With Extra Attack, reckless sneak attack with my rapier, Dueling FS, Action Surge, Danger Sense, Superiority Dice (including Riposte to have a chance to land a second reckless sneak attack), and Cunning Action I'm pretty confident that I could be a nightmare in combat. Extra Attack opens the door to using the first attack to shove a creature prone, which is almost guaranteed to succeed with Athletics Expertise and advantage while raging, and then landing my sneak attack in the same turn, while giving my allies advantage as well. I won't ever have to worry about allies being near an enemy in order to sneak attack because I can give myself advantage at will. If I knock them prone, I can sneak attack and stay put, hoping to use riposte to trigger a second sneak attack with my reaction. If I don't knock them prone, I use reckless attack for my sneak attack and then use Cunning Action to disengage.