D&D (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Neonchameleon]

I know the Sorcerer can be Draconic, with the "lineage" from an individual Dragon. But even here, I view this as "planar". With the lore of the "First World", both Dragons and Giants are fundamental aspects of the Material Plane. So I view Draconic and potentially Giant as planar affinity with the Material Plane.

Likewise, the Aberrant Sorcerer has no relationship with any specific Aberrant creature. The affinity is with the plane of Farrealm itself, its ambient energies.

By contrast, the Warlock "pact" is with a specific creature.

Yes. Thematically this difference is as great as that between wizards and clerics. The thematic confusion is sorcerer vs wizard and cleric vs warlock. Arguably also nature cleric vs druid.

Mechanically, of course, the Warlock is the one furthest from anyone else. And as I've said thematically the wizard is a sorcerer subclass - and the wizard subclasses are all very meh and none of them really inspire people that I've seen. Even bladesinger.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Yes. Thematically this difference is as great as that between wizards and clerics. The thematic confusion is sorcerer vs wizard and cleric vs warlock. Arguably also nature cleric vs druid.

Mechanically, of course, the Warlock is the one furthest from anyone else. And as I've said thematically the wizard is a sorcerer subclass - and the wizard subclasses are all very meh and none of them really inspire people that I've seen. Even bladesinger.

Honestly the trio of sorcerer/warlock/wizard could easily be moved about and turned into two separate classes. One defined by the 'type' of magic they do (dark magic, wild magic, war magic, elemental magic, runic magic, etc). The other defined by gaining their power through a pact or ancestry with a magical creature (dragon, lich, vampire, aberration, celestial, genie). One could be a d6 full caster, the other could be a d8 half or pact caster with options to push into the magic or martial side.

I don't think it's as simple as 'merge x class with y class', as all three have aspects which would suit one of the others. It's more redistributing the parts around completely to make two classes.

 

[Yaarel]

Yes. Thematically this difference is as great as that between wizards and clerics. The thematic confusion is sorcerer vs wizard and cleric vs warlock. Arguably also nature cleric vs druid.

Mechanically, of course, the Warlock is the one furthest from anyone else. And as I've said thematically the wizard is a sorcerer subclass - and the wizard subclasses are all very meh and none of them really inspire people that I've seen. Even bladesinger.

Re flavors. Something like.


The Diviner Wizard (seeing across spacetime and planes) should include teleporting (across spacetime) and planeshifting (across planes). But other Wizard subclasses lack special affinity with planar magic. Perhaps even an Evoker Wizard lacks affinity with the Elemental Planes: affinity with the element but not with plane per se.

But the Sorcerer is all about planarity with a specific plane − a specific level of existence − and planeshifting and blending to-and-fro. A Sorcerer is a portal.


The Warlock has a personal pact with an individual creature. Moreorless a business deal. This pact transforms the Warlock into a magical creature.

By contrast the source of the Cleric magic is the culture − the sacred tradition, the symbols, the contemplations, the rituals. These linguistic (semiotic) cultures have affinity with the Astral thought stuff, and the cohering associations with it. Likewise, the source of the Paladin is the oath, the linguistic formulation.


The source of the Druid is primal magic − namely the features of nature are persons with minds who are members of the community of the Druid. They all assist each other mutually in a neighborly way.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Re flavors. Something like.


The Diviner Wizard (seeing across spacetime and planes) should include teleporting (across spacetime) and planeshifting (across planes). But other Wizard subclasses lack special affinity with planar magic. Perhaps even an Evoker Wizard lacks affinity with the Elemental Planes: affinity with the element but not with plane per se.

That would take a radical redefinition of the wizard and of the subclasses. The current wizard is basically defined by being able to cast a broader list than anyone else, and for a wizard to have extended spell list would mean the rest of them had to be restricted.

I'm not saying there are no attempts at this; Matt Mercer's graviturgy and OP chronurgy spring to mind. As does arguably the way Illusion works. But it is not who the wizard is now.

By contrast the source of the Cleric magic is the culture − the sacred tradition, the symbols, the contemplations, the rituals. These linguistic (semiotic) cultures have affinity with the Astral thought stuff, and the cohering associations with it. Likewise, the source of the Paladin is the oath, the linguistic formulation.

Mmmm... I really can't agree with either of these. You would need careful worldbuilding to make this for clerics; you'd need to have most domains as culturally restricted. And the Paladin is more the burning intent than the text of the oath or there wouldn't be multiple formulations.

 

[Yaarel]

That would take a radical redefinition of the wizard and of the subclasses. The current wizard is basically defined by being able to cast a broader list than anyone else, and for a wizard to have extended spell list would mean the rest of them had to be restricted.

I'm not saying there are no attempts at this; Matt Mercer's graviturgy and OP chronurgy spring to mind. As does arguably the way Illusion works. But it is not who the wizard is now.

Dunomancy can be an official spell school that covers force effects − like telekinesis, flight, Reverse Gravity, etcetera. These are some of the most powerful spells in the game.

Illusion can cover force constructs.

The Illusionist subclass can have affinity with both schools.


The Diviner by itself has the most boring spells in the game − and the most troublesome when many divinations are merely a DM hint, controlled by the DM. But add Teleport and Planeshift, and the subclass becomes a well-rounded competent subclass in a thematically consistent way.

Mmmm... I really can't agree with either of these. You would need careful worldbuilding to make this for clerics; you'd need to have most domains as culturally restricted. And the Paladin is more the burning intent than the text of the oath or there wouldn't be multiple formulations.

Simple. Is there a sacred community with sacred traditions? The Cleric class can be an adherent of it.

 

[MoonSong]

But the Sorcerer is all about planarity with a specific plane − a specific level of existence − and planeshifting and blending to-and-fro. A Sorcerer is a portal.

I don't know. This feels too extreme a departure.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't know. This feels too extreme a departure.

Remind me how you view the Sorcerer?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Dunomancy can be an official spell school that covers force effects − like telekinesis, flight, Reverse Gravity, etcetera. These are some of the most powerful spells in the game.

This is missing the point. The point is that outside Dunomancy and arguably illusion where the level 14 and sometimes level 6 abilities are strong enough to basically make new spells every wizard has the ability (assuming levels and sources) to cast every single wizard spell in the game. Wizards all do the same basic thing the same basic way with very minor bonuses.

The Diviner by itself has the most boring spells in the game

The Diviner by itself has every wizard spell in the game and the only benefit they get for casting divination spells is a cashback loyalty card. It's picked a lot to be a powerful generic wizzzard.

Simple. Is there a sacred community with sacred traditions? The Cleric class can be an adherent of it.

Using the real world to illustrate (and hoping I don't run afoul of the no religion clause) Wiccans are very different in many ways from Catholic priests. But a fantasy Wiccan-analogue cleric who specialises in healing people and a fantasy Catholic-analogue cleric who specialises in healing peoplr are probably both going to be statted up as Life Clerics, thus having 100% overlap on spells and class based abilities despite the massive differences in culture and approach. And that's just staying within Western European traditions.

 

[Yaarel]

This is missing the point. The point is that outside Dunomancy and arguably illusion where the level 14 and sometimes level 6 abilities are strong enough to basically make new spells every wizard has the ability (assuming levels and sources) to cast every single wizard spell in the game. Wizards all do the same basic thing the same basic way with very minor bonuses.

The Diviner by itself has every wizard spell in the game and the only benefit they get for casting divination spells is a cashback loyalty card. It's picked a lot to be a powerful generic wizzzard.

Using the real world to illustrate (and hoping I don't run afoul of the no religion clause) Wiccans are very different in many ways from Catholic priests. But a fantasy Wiccan-analogue cleric who specialises in healing people and a fantasy Catholic-analogue cleric who specialises in healing peoplr are probably both going to be statted up as Life Clerics, thus having 100% overlap on spells and class based abilities despite the massive differences in culture and approach. And that's just staying within Western European traditions.

But there are many different kinds of Wiccans!


A single sacred tradition can associate with numerous Cleric domains − life, light, war, grave, etcetera are relevant to many sacred traditions.

Moreover, a populous sacred tradition can have different "streams", "rites", "orders", etcetera within it, each with its own assemblage of Cleric domains.

It is easy to accommodate a Cleric domain via a sacred tradition.

Moreover, since religion is reallife sensitive it must be 100% the PLAYER who chooses the character concept of a Cleric character. Thus, while a setting can suggest possibilities, it must the PLAYER who decides.

Generally, it is polite for the player to pick a Cleric concept that both the player and the DM agree on. But because of reallife session zero, the DM needs to go out of ones way to accommodate the player as much as possible.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But there are many different kinds of Wiccans!

Oh, absolutely. I'm not saying that no fantasy Wiccans map to e.g. nature clerics or even druids or warlocks. This is irrelevant to the point I was making.

What I am saying is that if both fantasy Wiccans and fantasy Catholic priests can commonly map to Life Cleric (or Light Cleric or whichever) with literally identical mechanics despite very different religious cultures then it's not "culture" that makes them. Very different cultures make for identical mechanical representation.

Clerics might be fuelled by gods and divine power, or they might be by prayer and ritual energy, or have some other commonality. But the commonality can't be something that is different between clerics, the clericsl part of which is mechanically identical.