D&D (2024) So Class Complexity...

[Maxperson]

Yeah, it's absolutely a "How complex is character creation" not "How complex is combat operation" chart.

If that's the case, that chart is completely borked. Warlocks have 5 decisions. 2 cantrips, 2 spells, and one patron. Wizards have 9. 3 cantrips and 6 1st level spells. Sorcerers have 7. Monks are incredibly simple at 1st level. Unarmored defense and martial arts.

It can't mean how complex character creation is. Even WotC isn't THAT bad at judging things.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

not the point but i'm laughing at how bad some of the entires in that 'likes' column are, what are some of those?

It's like that chart was written by the world's worst career guidance counselor.

 

[Minigiant]

If that's the case, that chart is completely borked. Warlocks have 5 decisions. 2 cantrips, 2 spells, and one patron. Wizards have 9. 3 cantrips and 6 1st level spells. Sorcerers have 7. Monks are incredibly simple at 1st level. Unarmored defense and martial arts.

It can't mean how complex character creation is. Even WotC isn't THAT bad at judging things.

Yeah Monk and Barbarian are literally Highest Score to Primary, Second highest to Secondary, Choose weapon, Roll face on imaginary keyboard until enemy or you die.

 

[Clint_L]

WotC put this out a little bit ago as part of their 5.24 previews. WotC is advising certain "complexity" levels to each class, and I think its worth looking at what they are thinking is complex.

(NOTE: Everything is speculative unless you have a 2024 PHB and are breaking NDA. Keep in mind we don't have a full picture of the scope of rules and ability changes yet).

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So the first thing I see is the the pure martials (fighter and rogue) are Low complexity. I would certainly say the Thief and Champion are. On the Other Hand, bard, sorcerer, druid, monk, and warlock are all High, which I think is again is fair. Bard's magic secrets are going to be very tricky and require knowledge of four different spell lists. Warlocks are highly customizable with invocations, sorcerers juggle two different resources (SP and spell slots), druids need the monster manual to run, and monks are another resource-dependant class. I would generally agree most of the rest are average, though wizard as average is certainly a choice (I get sorcerer and bard both need a lot more understanding of the rules, but wizard isn't exactly easy to run either).

I imagine most people will have differeing opinions on the complexity, but assuming there are only three levels, I kinda agree. I would call wizard High and I think Ranger is teetering on Low, but otherwise think this correct.

Interesting. I tend to think of complexity in terms of "how hard is it for a total beginner to learn?" because that's my context for D&D Club.

In my experience, at low levels it would be:
Artificer: High
Barbarian: Low ("I would like to Rage.")
Bard: High
Cleric: Average
Druid: High
Fighter: Low
Monk: Average
Ranger: Average
Rogue: Average
Sorcerer: Very High
Warlock: High
Wizard: Average

Sub-class choice will obviously have an effect whenever those come online. A champion remains low difficulty, but a battle master is high.

What typically makes a class harder for beginners is having to learn multiple systems. So even though I tend to think of, say, a warlock as a simple class, evocations are actually very hard for a new player to choose and understand because they have no context. They don't even know that Eldritch Blast will be their bread and butter spell unless I tell them. And sorcery points are the bane of my existence with most new players who pick sorcerer

 

[Vaalingrade]

It can't mean how complex character creation is. Even WotC isn't THAT bad at judging things.

I mean, the fact that the chart exists points to... yes. Yes they are.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'll disagree. The people that need to use these complexity scales are likely going to be new players. Optimization is not really at the forefront at this point, just putting together a character that gets the job done and they have fun roleplaying.

With in mind, choosing a few invocations from a small list isn't any harder than picking cleric spells from a much larger one for example.

Option paralysis and fear of picking wrong add complexity in creation and play, plus the gish style of bladelocks is more difficult than being a wizard. The wizard gets to repick all their superpowers after a nap (and during short rests now). In play, their only feature is spells, compared to balancing multiple other resources (bardic inspiration, sorcery points which both convert to spells and can be made from spells, etc).There's no expectation to support other characters like a cleric/druid/bard either.

Feels like a lot of back patting to rank them high complexity. They're the least complex full caster.

Druids, which are new player catnip due to animal form, are S tier in terms of difficulty by comparison.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, the fact that the chart exists points to... yes. Yes they are.

The chart seems to point to how the class plays over 20 levels, not just at 1st level. It's still off on some things, but not as incredibly off as it would be if it only looked at character creation.

 

[Epic Meepo]

Barbarian
Likes… Yelling
Dislikes… Anger management
Complexity: “Hulk smash!”

Bard
Likes… Guitar riffs
Dislikes… Selling out
Complexity: Side gig

Spoiler: And So On

Cleric
Likes… Divine power
Dislikes… Pretending to like gods
Complexity: Agnostic

Druid
Likes… Baby animals
Dislikes… Global warming
Complexity: Granola

Fighter
Likes… Fighting (duh)
Dislikes… Quadratic wizards
Complexity: Linear

Monk
Likes… Punching things
Dislikes… Any monastery that isn’t a Shaolin monastery
Complexity: Zen

Paladin
Likes… Defense? No, smiting things!
Dislikes… Diplomacy, as opposed to smiting things!
Complexity: Lawful stupid

Ranger
Likes… Spellcasting
Dislikes… Fans of non-spellcasting rangers
Complexity: As much as you want, as long as it involves spellcasting

Rogue
Likes… Sneak attack
Dislik— “SNEAK ATTACK!”

Sorcerer
Likes… Long walks on the beach
Dislikes… Letting go of spell components
Complexity: High maintenance

Warlock
Likes… Brooding
Dislikes… Having any meaningful obligation to a warlock patron
Complexity: No one understands me

Wizard
Likes… Book clubs
Dislikes… J.K. Rowling
Complexity: YA

Edit: Put the end of my attempt at humor in a spoiler block so it wouldn't hog anyone's screen.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The chart seems to point to how the class plays over 20 levels, not just at 1st level. It's still off on some things, but not as incredibly off as it would be if it only looked at character creation.

I point rather to the fact that this is flat out admission that they think it's good design to sacrifice whole classes and archetypes to 'low complexity' and that the Vancian class that needs to play a guessing game with the DM every in-game day with the entire product line as it's list of choices is 'average' complexity, and 'has one button to push that recharges daily' is not low complexity points to being catastrophically bad at judging things.

 

[Charlaquin]

I've argued for a while warlocks are simple to play but complex to build. Pact magic means you need to know which spells scale (and which to replace due to poor/no upcasting) and how to maximize your invocations for your role (melee, sniper, etc). Coupled with low slots per SR, you need to lean to pace yourself properly. All that is far harder than any full caster IMHO.

I do agree with the “complex to build, simple to play” assessment. If we’re flattening all axies of complexity down to a single “low, average, high” rating, the high build complexity and low play complexity should balance each other out to land then at average overall.