RPG Evolution: The Half-Edition Shuffle

The next edition of Dungeons & Dragons is finally on the horizon, but it's not here just yet. So when do publishers makes the shift?

The next edition of Dungeons & Dragons is finally on the horizon, but it's not here just yet. So when do publishers makes the shift?

thehalfeditionshuffle.png

A Historical Model​

D&D has been through several editions in recent memory, but few match the recent transition between two compatible editions. Although backwards compatibility is often promised, it's rarely delivered. And there's also the consideration of the thousands of small press publishers created through the Open Game License movement, which didn't exist before Third Edition. Of all the edition shifts, the 3.0 to 3.5 transition seems closest to what D&D is going through right now, so it's a good place to start this thought experiment.

Compatible, Sort Of​

Fifth Edition's transition to Sixth involves tweaks to the game. Those tweaks seemed largely cosmetic, at first. With the release of Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse, it's clear that the spellcasting section of monsters is going to be significantly changed. In short, while players may find their characters compatible with the latest edition of D&D, DMs may find their monsters aren't. And that's a problem for publishers. But mechanically, all of these issues can be addressed. What really matters is what customers think. And that's often shaped by branding.

What a Half-Edition Means​

The transition between Third Edition and 3.5 was more significant than many publishers were expecting. You can see a list on RPG Stack Exchange, which shows just how much the new edition changed the game.

This did not go unnoticed by consumers. The OGL movement was still developing but it caught many publishers by surprise, including the company I wrote for at the time, Monkeygod Publishing (they're no longer in business). When we released my hardcover book Frost & Fur, the only identifier was the D20 System logo. Little did we know that it was imperative to identify the book as 3.5-compatible (which it was), because stores wouldn't carry it and consumers wouldn't buy it if it wasn't.

There wasn't nearly as much communication from WIzards of the Coast back then as to how to prepare for the edition change, much less columns from the company explaining their strategy. More communication about the upcoming edition may mitigate its impact on third-party publishers.

Between the DM's Guild and DriveThruRPG, there is now an ecosystem that can more readily update itself without taking up shelf space or clogging up inventory. Digital products can be changed, covers can be rebranded, and newsletters can announce the update. Wizards of the Coast has also given considerable lead time on the coming changes by announcing the edition well in advance and updating books piecemeal so developers can see what changed. But there's still one important piece of the puzzle.

What Do Consumers Think?​

One of the ongoing concerns for supporting publishers of Third Edition was how the Open Game License would be updated and, at least as important, how to identify that compatibility.

Updating the OGL enables publishers to ensure their products are compatible. The OGL doesn't specify stat block structure, so it may not even be necessary to update the license much if at all.

Identifying compatibility will be even more critical. At some point, publishers will start identifying their products as Sixth Edition compatible. And that will happen when consumers shift their spending habits.

The Changeover​

But first, WOTC has to declare that Sixth Edition has officially arrived. Wizards was hesitant to put a number on Fifth Edition, preferring instead to indicate it was simply D&D to potentially head off edition controversy. Failure to do that in a timely fashion (or worse, failure to recognize a new edition at all and continue calling it Fifth Edition) will cause potential confusion in the marketplace, with both consumers and publishers.

At some point the tide will turn and consumers will expect compatibility with the new edition. That change is complicated by the fact that Sixth Edition should be largely compatible with Fifth Edition. But only consumers can decide that for sure; if they don't feel it is, there will be a sharp drop off in Fifth Edition buying habits. For smaller publishers, they'll stay close to the market to determine when that shift is happening and how to transition smoothly without harming their business model.

Getting it right can be lucrative. Getting it wrong can sink a company. The market convulsed massively when 3.5 came out, wiping out publishers and game store stock that were unprepared for the change. Here's hoping with enough foresight and planning, we don't have a repeat of the 3.0 transition.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Maybe. I'd be interested in hearing what you think 6e could do more like 4e that would make it overall better.

I am not the one adressed, but what springs to my head immediately:

- Hit dice for more than healing and for limiting/adding to certain healing abilities

- Rituals that can be partaken by several people and do more than classic spell stuff

- more unified progression, so you can mix and match different subclasses

- paragon paths
 

log in or register to remove this ad



FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I am not the one adressed, but what springs to my head immediately:

- Hit dice for more than healing and for limiting/adding to certain healing abilities
I don’t recall healing surges being used for more than healing. Maybe you can elaborate here?

- Rituals that can be partaken by several people and do more than classic spell stuff
That sounds cool

- more unified progression, so you can mix and match different subclasses
I personally see more cons than pros there.

- paragon paths
Not sure what these would look like in 5e to you?
 

I don’t recall healing surges being used for more than healing. Maybe you can elaborate here?

I thought there were some rituals where you could spend them... But probably I could be wrong.

To paragon paths:
I really liked the Idea of different classes being able to share abilities with different classes. Having another decision point and maybe finding a new purpose.
This may serve as an alternate to cross class subclasses.
 

Voadam

Legend
Can you provide a brief summary of the differences for us lay people?
Under the OGL when you comply with the license you can use designated open content (such as the SRD which in 3e contained most of the core rules and mechanical elements of the PH, DMG, and MM, plus psionics, and a few other WotC bits) to make your own products. This is an irrevocable license to use the mechanics of OGL material.

Most 3e, Pathfinder, and OSR stuff is OGL.
A lot of 5e stuff is OGL, although DM's Guild is a different non-OGL license and has a ton of stuff too.

Under the 4e GSL it was a license to use some 4e limited references and indicate compatibility with official D&D. You could make a module or a new bestiary but not reprint stats for the core monsters. It is not an irrevocable license, does not include all of the core mechanics and stat blocks, and had a number of specific restrictions if you agree to the license.

the 4e GSL had a provision (Section 6) about agreeing to abandon any OGL publication if the publisher converted that material to the 4e GSL. The 4e GSL also prohibited turning any GSL material into an OGL product.

So If the Tome of Horrors with versions under 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, Swords & Wizardry, and 5e under the OGL were converted to 4e and published under the 4e GSL those other system ones would have to be abandoned and no longer published or sold. Similarly if Frog God wished to make a 4e bestiary they were prohibited under the license from also making a Pathfinder or Swords and Wizardry or 5e version of the new bestiary.

Under Section 7 WotC had content and quality standards that they could invoke to cancel a GSL product.

Under Section 10.3 on protection of WotC proprietary rights the GSL licensee agrees to help WotC to protect its IP and agrees not to institute any lawsuits or take any action regarding WotC's IP and agree not to do anything to bring disrepute upon the IP or WotC.

Under Section 11 WotC could terminate the license and stop GSL products from being further published or sold.

Last Updated: June 17, 2008
Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition
Game System License
This Game System License Agreement (the “License”) is offered by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a Washington corporation (“Wizards”). The License applies to the use in third party publications of certain proprietary elements of Wizards’ Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition roleplaying game products (“4E”), specifically, the 4E Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, and Monster Manual (collectively, “Core Rulebooks”). Please read this License carefully. By returning the Statement of Acceptance as presented in the file “SOA.pdf” that is available for download at http://www.wizards.com/d20 (“Statement of Acceptance”), the person or entity named on the Statement of Acceptance (“Licensee”) expressly agrees to be bound by the terms of this License.
1. Effective Date. The License commences fourteen (14) days after the date Wizards receives Licensee’s completed Statement of Acceptance, provided the submitter of the Statement of Acceptance has not received a written notice from Wizards within such fourteen (14) day period declining to offer a License. Licensee represents and warrants that all information provided to Wizards on the Statement of Acceptance is accurate. Licensee will notify Wizards of any changes to the information provided on the Statement of Acceptance (including without limitation, name or address change) by submitting a corrected Statement of Acceptance within fourteen (14) days following the effective date of such change. Any failure by Licensee to so notify Wizards of corrections or updates to the information provided on the Statement of Acceptance will cause this License to terminate upon notice from Wizards. Notwithstanding the foregoing, except as otherwise provided in this License no Licensed Product (as defined below) will have a first on-sale date prior to October 1, 2008.
2. Updates or Revisions to License. Wizards may update or revise the License at any time in its sole discretion by posting the updated License on its website page located at http://www.wizards.com/d20. Wizards will indicate on the License the date it was last updated. Licensee is responsible for checking the License regularly for changes, and waives any right to receive specific notice of changes. Licensee’s continued use of any Licensed Materials (as defined below) after the “Last Updated” date above, including without limitation any publication or distribution of Licensed Products (as defined below), confirms Licensee’s acceptance of any changes to the License.
3. Licensed Products. The license granted in Section 4 is for use solely in connection with Licensee’s publication, distribution, and sale of roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that contain the Licensed Materials and are published in a hardcover or soft-cover printed book format or in a single-download electronic book format (such as .pdf), and accessory products to the foregoing roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that are not otherwise listed as excluded in Section 5.5 (“Licensed Products”).
4. License Grant. Subject to Licensee’s compliance with all of the terms and conditions of the License, Wizards grants Licensee a non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable royalty-free, worldwide license to utilize the following materials (“Licensed Materials”) in Licensed Products, solely in the manner described herein and subject to the additional requirements, limitations and restrictions set forth herein and in Section 5:
4.1 4E References. Licensee may reprint the proprietary 4E reference terms, tables, and templates (each, a “4E Reference”) described in the 4E System Reference Document as presented in the file “SRD.pdf” that is available for download at http://www.wizards.com/d20 (“SRD”), incorporated herein by reference. Licensee acknowledges that Wizards has previously defined each 4E Reference. Licensee will D&D 4E Game System License ©2008 Wizards of the Coast page 1 of 7
not define, redefine, or alter the definition of any 4E Reference in a Licensed Product. Without limiting the foregoing, Licensee may create original material that adds to the applicability of a 4E Reference, so long as this original material complies with the preceding sentence. Licensee will comply with all usage guidelines set forth in the SRD. Wizards may update or revise the SRD at any time in its sole discretion by posting the updated SRD on its website page located at http://www.wizards.com/d20. Wizards will indicate on the cover page of the SRD the date it was last updated. Licensee is responsible for checking the SRD regularly for changes, and waives any right to receive specific notice of changes.
4.2 Logo. Licensee must print Wizards’ proprietary “compatibility” service mark as presented in either of the files labeled “GSLLogo.pdf” and “GSLLogoBW.pdf” that are available for download at http://www.wizards.com/d20 (“Compatibility Logo”) on the lower left quadrant of the back cover of each Licensed Product and on the lower one-third (1/3) of the page in which the legal text described in Section 5.2 is located, or if a Licensed Product is made available only in an electronic format, the last page, and sized identically to the Compatibility Logo as shown in the files listed above. Licensee may additionally utilize the Compatibility Logo in advertisements and marketing materials (including without limitation, website listings and catalogs) for Licensed Products, provided, that such Compatibility Logo solely appears in the lower left quadrant of any such advertisement or marketing material; and is sized identically to the Compatibility Logo as shown in the files listed above.
5. Requirements; Limitations
5.1 Use of Trademarks. Use of any trademarks included in the Licensed Materials is subject to Wizards’ trademark usage guidelines, as may be provided from time to time, and is limited to use solely to refer to 4E and the Core Rulebooks. Licensee will not use such trademarks in any other manner, and will not use any trademarks of Wizards other than pursuant to this License or another agreement between Wizards and Licensee.
5.2 Licensed Products Legal Text. Within the first three (3) non-cover pages of all Licensed Products, and, where practical, together with any other legal text supplied by Licensee, Licensee will include the following statements in at least ten-point font:
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Compatibility Logo, D&D, PLAYER’S HANDBOOK, DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE, and MONSTER MANUAL are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. in the USA and other countries and are used with permission. Certain materials, including 4E References in this publication, D&D core rules mechanics, and all D&D characters and their distinctive likenesses, are property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., and are used with permission under the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Game System License. All 4E References are listed in the 4E System Reference Document, available at www.wizards.com/d20.
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS 4th Edition PLAYER’S HANDBOOK, written by Rob Heinsoo, Andy Collins, and James Wyatt; DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE, written by James Wyatt; and MONSTER MANUAL, written by Mike Mearls, Stephen Schubert and James Wyatt
© 2008 Wizards of the Coast, Inc. All rights reserved.
5.3 Advertising Legal Text. Licensee will include the following legal text in at least 8-point font in all advertisements and other marketing materials in which the Compatibility Logo appears pursuant to Section 4.2:
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Compatibility Logo ™ & © Wizards of the Coast in the USA and other countries. Used with permission. D&D 4E Game System License ©2008 Wizards of the Coast page 2 of 7
5.4 First On-Sale Date. Licensee will ensure that no Licensed Product is first on sale to consumers prior to October 1, 2008. Wizards may terminate this License immediately upon notice to Licensee in the event that any sale of a Licensed Product is made, by any individual or entity, to a consumer prior to October 1, 2008. Without limiting the foregoing, Licensee may produce, publish, and distribute (a) marketing and promotional materials for Licensed Products, and (b) non-commercial Licensed Products (i.e. free), in accordance with the terms of this License prior to October 1, 2008.
5.5 Licensed Products. This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites, interactive products, miniatures, or character creators; (b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character; (c) use the terms “Core Rules” or “Core Rulebook” or variations thereof on its cover or title, in self-reference or in advertising or marketing thereof; (d) refer to any artwork, imagery or other depiction contained in a Core Rulebook; (e) reprint any material contained in a Core Rulebook except as explicitly provided in Section 4; or (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way of example only, a magazine or book compilation).
5.6 Reprinting. Licensee will not publish or reprint (a) the contents of the SRD in their entirety; or (b) definitions of any 4E References, whether or not similar to those listed in any product published by Wizards.
5.7 Imagery. For the avoidance of doubt and in addition to the provisions of Section 10 related to ownership and use of Wizards Intellectual Property (as defined therein), Licensee expressly acknowledges Wizards’ ownership of all imagery and artwork contained in 4E, and Licensee expressly agrees it will not use, publish or reprint any such imagery or artwork, including without limitation any derivatives thereof, without Wizards’ written permission.
6. OGL; Conversion
6.1 OGL Product Conversion. If Licensee has entered into the “Open Gaming License version 1.0” with Wizards (“OGL”), and Licensee has previously published a product under the OGL (each an “OGL Product”), Licensee may publish a Licensed Product subject to this License that features the same or similar title, product line trademark, or contents as such OGL Product (each such OGL Product, a “Converted OGL Product”, and each such Licensed Product, a “Conversion”). Upon the first publication date of a Conversion, Licensee will cease all manufacturing and publication of the corresponding Converted OGL Product and all other OGL Products which are part of the same product line as the Converted OGL Product, as reasonably determined by Wizards (“Converted OGL Product Line”). Licensee explicitly agrees that it will not thereafter manufacture or publish any portion of the Converted OGL Product Line, or any products that would be considered part of a Converted OGL Product Line (as reasonably determined by Wizards) pursuant to the OGL. Licensee may continue to distribute and sell-off all remaining physical inventory of a Converted OGL Product Line after the corresponding Conversion is published, but will, as of such date, cease all publication, distribution and sale (and ensure that third party affiliates of Licensee cease their publication, distribution and sale) of any element of a Converted OGL Product Line in any electronic downloadable format. For the avoidance of doubt, (a) any OGL Product that is not part of a Converted OGL Product Line may continue to be manufactured, published, sold and distributed pursuant to the OGL; and (b) this Section 6.1 will survive termination of this Agreement.
6.2 No Backward Conversion. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that it will not publish any product pursuant to the OGL that features the same or similar title, product line trademark, or contents of a Licensed Product.
D&D 4E Game System License ©2008 Wizards of the Coast page 3 of 7
6.3 Licensee Termination. In the event that any portion of a Converted OGL Product Line is manufactured or published by Licensee, or a third party affiliated with Licensee, after the first publication date of a Conversion, Wizards may immediately terminate this License upon written notice.
7. Quality and Content Standards. The nature and quality of all Licensed Products will conform to the quality standards set by Wizards, as may be provided from time to time. At a minimum, the Licensed Products will conform to community standards of decency and appropriateness as determined by Wizards in its discretion. Without limiting the foregoing, no Licensed Products will depict in any text, graphical or other manner:
(a) excessively graphic violence or gore;
(b) sexual situations, sexual abuse, pornography, gratuitous nudity of human or humanoid forms, genitalia, or sexual activity; or
(c) existing real-world minorities, nationalities, social castes, religious groups or practices, political preferences, genders, lifestyle preferences, or people with disabilities, as a group inferior to any other group or in a way that promotes disrespect for those groups or practices, or that endorses those groups or practices over another.
Without limiting the foregoing, Licensed Products will not contain any content that is unlawful, defamatory, harassing, threatening, abusive, inflammatory, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable or that would infringe upon or violate the rights of any third party or constitute, encourage, or provide instructions for a criminal offense.
8. Compliance with Laws; Noninfringement. Licensee is solely responsible for ensuring that Licensed Products (a) comply with all applicable laws, regulations, orders and other requirements of any governmental authority in any territory in which Licensed Products are published, marketed, distributed, and/or sold; and (b) do not infringe upon or violate the rights of any third party.
9. Right of Review. Upon Wizards’ request, Licensee will supply samples of Licensed Products to Wizards sufficient for Wizards to ensure that such Licensed Products conform to the requirements of this License, including without limitation, Section 7 and Section 8.
10. Proprietary Rights.
10.1 Ownership. Licensee recognizes Wizards’ rights and interests in and to all Wizards Intellectual Property and that all rights therein, including good will pertaining thereto, belong exclusively to Wizards. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that its use of Licensed Materials inures to the benefit of Wizards. No right, title, or interest in the Licensed Materials or any Wizards Intellectual Property is transferred by this License. Licensee understands and agrees that it is not authorized to, and will not utilize, any Wizards Intellectual Property (other than Licensed Materials), including without limitation any trademarks owned by Wizards, except and unless Licensee has entered into a separate licensing agreement with Wizards authorizing such use. Licensee will not attack the title of Wizards in and to any Wizards Intellectual Property, nor will Licensee attack the validity of this License. “Wizards Intellectual Property” means any patent, copyright, trademark, trade dress, trade name or trade secret right and any other intellectual property or proprietary right owned by Wizards, in each case whether arising under the laws of the United States or any other jurisdiction, including all rights of registration and renewal and causes of action for infringement or misappropriation related to any of the foregoing. For the avoidance of doubt, Wizards Intellectual Property includes all content contained within the Core Rulebooks and all Licensed Materials, including without limitation the SRD.
D&D 4E Game System License ©2008 Wizards of the Coast page 4 of 7
10.2 Third Party IP. To the extent any Licensed Product contains third party content or any content that is otherwise subject to the intellectual property rights of any third party, including without limitation any patents, copyrights, trademarks, rights of privacy or publicity (“Third Party IP”), then, as between Licensee and Wizards, Licensee is the licensee of all Third Party IP contained in such Licensed Product. Licensee will obtain all required licenses and permissions for its use of Third Party IP in the Licensed Products.
10.3 Protection of Wizards’ Rights. Licensee will assist Wizards to the extent necessary or as requested by Wizards to protect any of Wizards’ rights in and to Wizards Intellectual Property. Wizards will reimburse Licensee for any reasonable out-of-pocket costs incurred as a result of providing such assistance, provided that Wizards has approved such costs in advance. Licensee will not institute any suit or take any action on account of any such infringements or imitations, or otherwise institute any suit or take any action relating to Wizards Intellectual Property. Licensee will take no action that will harm, misuse or bring into disrepute the activities, properties or products of Wizards or Wizards Intellectual Property.
10.4 Remedies. Licensee recognizes and acknowledges that its breach of any of the covenants, agreements or undertakings hereunder with respect to use of the Licensed Materials, including without limitation trademark use requirements or quality standards, will cause Wizards irreparable damage which cannot be readily remedied in damages in an action at law, and may additionally constitute an infringement of Wizards’ rights in Wizards Intellectual Property, thereby entitling Wizards to equitable remedies, costs and reasonable attorneys’ fees.
11. Termination and Effect.
11.1 Termination. This License and the rights granted hereunder will terminate automatically upon written notice to Licensee or upon posting on its website of a termination of the GSL as applied to all licensees.
11.2 Survival. Sections 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 (together with all other provisions that reasonably may be interpreted as surviving termination of this License) will survive the termination of this License.
11.3 Effect of Termination. Upon termination, Licensee will immediately cease all use of the Licensed Materials and will destroy all inventory and marketing materials in Licensee’s possession bearing the Compatibility Logo. Licensee will remove the Compatibility Logo from all advertising, web sites, and other materials. Licensee will solely bear all costs related to carrying out this provision (in addition to any other provision) of the License. Wizards may, in its sole discretion and upon written agreement between Wizards and Licensee, extend this License for those Licensed Products that otherwise comply with the terms of this License.
11.4 Injunctive Relief. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that noncompliance with the terms of this License may cause irreparable injury to Wizards for which Wizards will not have an adequate remedy at law, and that Wizards will therefore be entitled to apply to a court for extraordinary relief, including temporary restraining orders, preliminary injunctions, permanent injunctions, or decrees of specific performance, without necessity of posting bond or security. The existence of these rights will not preclude Wizards from pursuing any other rights and remedies at law or in equity that Wizards may have, including recovery of damages, and each and every remedy will be cumulative and in addition to every other remedy provided hereunder or available at law or in equity. Licensee will be responsible for all legal costs, including Wizards’ attorneys’ fees, associated with any action required by Wizards to enforce the terms of this License.
D&D 4E Game System License ©2008 Wizards of the Coast page 5 of 7
12. Representations. Licensee represents and warrants that:
(a) Licensee is the sole author and owner of the Licensed Products; and, to the extent a Licensed Product contains any material contributed by a third party or any other Third Party IP, Licensee has obtained all necessary rights, licenses and/or permissions to use such Third Party IP in such Licensed Product;
(b) Licensee has full power and authority to enter into and perform its obligations under this License;
(c) this License does not conflict with any other contract or prior material commitment made by Licensee;
(d) no Licensed Product infringes upon or violates any statutory or common law copyright or other intellectual property, contract, property or other right of a third party;
(e) no Licensed Product invades the right of privacy of any person, nor contains any matter libelous or otherwise in contravention of the rights of any third party; and
(f) Licensee will comply with all applicable laws, regulations, orders and other requirements of any governmental authority in its performance under this License.
13 Limitation of Liability. THIS LICENSE AND THE RIGHTS PROVIDED HEREUNDER ARE PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS, AND WIZARDS DOES NOT MAKE, AND HEREBY DISCLAIMS, ANY REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, INCLUDING (WITHOUT LIMITATION) IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, TITLE AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. WITHOUT LIMITING THE GENERALITY OF THE FOREGOING, WIZARDS SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY REGARDING (A) THE AMOUNT OF SALES REVENUES THAT MAY OCCUR DURING THE TERM, AND (B) ANY ECONOMIC OR OTHER BENEFIT THAT RECIPIENT MIGHT OBTAIN THROUGH ITS PARTICIPATION IN THIS AGREEMENT. WIZARDS WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR SPECIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, LOST PROFITS) ARISING OUT OF THIS AGREEMENT.
14. Indemnification. Licensee will defend and indemnify Wizards and its affiliates, and their respective employees, directors and representatives, against any claim or action brought by a third party, to the extent relating to any demands arising directly or indirectly out of or relating to (a) the Licensed Products, including without limitation, any material contained therein that is alleged to be scandalous, libelous, unlawful, or infringing or violating any copyright, right of privacy, proprietary right, or any other right whatsoever; (b) the breach or alleged breach of any of Licensee’s representations or warranties; or (c) Licensee’s actions or inactions related to this License. Licensee will pay any award against Wizards or its affiliates (or their respective employees, directors or representatives) and will reimburse Wizards for any other damages and liabilities incurred by Wizards and any costs and attorneys’ fees reasonably incurred by Wizards and/or its affiliates (or their respective employees, directors or representatives) resulting from any such claim or action.
15. Relationship of Parties. This License will not be construed as creating an agency, partnership, joint venture or any other form of legal association between or among Licensee and Wizards, and Licensee will not represent to the contrary, whether expressly, by implication, appearance or otherwise.
16. No Assignment. Licensee may not assign this License, in whole or in part.
D&D 4E Game System License ©2008 Wizards of the Coast page 6 of 7
17. No Waiver; Construction. Failure by Wizards to enforce any provision of this License will not be deemed a waiver of future enforcement of that or any other provision. Any law or regulation which provides that the language of a contract shall be construed against the drafter will not apply to this License.
18. Independent Development. Nothing in this License will impair Wizards’ right to acquire, license, develop, have others develop for it, market and/or distribute materials or products that contain concepts, storylines, or other content similar to, or otherwise compete with, Licensed Products.
19. Choice of Law; Jurisdiction. This License will be governed by the laws of the State of Washington, USA, without reference to its choice of law rules. Licensee irrevocably consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of the federal and state courts located at King County, Washington with respect to any claim or suit brought by Licensee arising out of or related to this License, and Licensee agrees not to commence or prosecute any such claim or suit other than in the aforementioned courts. LICENSEE EXPRESSLY WAIVES ITS RIGHT TO A JURY TRIAL OF ANY DISPUTE, CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION RELATED TO OR ARISING OUT OF THIS LICENSE.
20. Severability. If any part of this License is declared invalid or unenforceable by a court of competent jurisdiction, it shall not affect the validity of the remainder of this License.
21. Entire Agreement; Integration. This Agreement sets forth the entire current agreement of the parties with respect to its subject matter and supersedes any previous or contemporaneous oral or written agreements regarding such subject matter, and can only be amended or modified by Wizards.
D&D 4E Game System License ©2008 Wizards of the Coast page 7 of 7
 

ctorus

Explorer
IMO, 4e being a part of the discussion isn't what was problematic. It was comments from both sides such as "4e failed" or "people disliked 4e because of presentation despite those people not actually saying or agreeing with that" that were the problem.


What does unfairly maligned mean? IMO it means that you feel people either incorrectly or invalidly criticized 4e. Personally, I think that's a weak position in this case, yet despite that it's a valid belief. But, IMO it's a belief that is only ever going to lead to the fractiousness you referenced earlier because the belief rests on dismissing other peoples stated criticisms.


If one disliked certain aspects of 4e that 5e moved away from then that idea of 'righting the wrong' seems understandable. Perhaps a bit too universal of a feeling but still understandable.


I think this is important - notice how 5e fans aren't telling you that you are unfairly maligning 5e because of whatever reasons you dislike it. They aren't saying you would like it if it had a more 4e presentation.


Maybe. I'd be interested in hearing what you think 6e could do more like 4e that would make it overall better.
I don't really follow the point of disagreement here. I am not dismissing all criticisms of 4e as invalid, or based solely on presentation, and I don't think anyone else here is. Hopefully that's clear. I even have several criticisms of 4e myself. I do maintain there was quite a lot of prominent uninformed criticism back then, but am trying to move on and view that as water under the bridge.

FWIW, I think I would like 5e better if it had a more 4e presentation, particularly if, as some have maintained, there are lots of 4e ideas under the hood that I have missed. As I said above I think presentation matters a lot.

I mentioned one thing I would love in my ideal 6e, which is the option to bring back tactical combat - perhaps a grid, or perhaps zonal (but sufficient to enable things like flanking and opportunity attacks), and for this to be supported by other aspects of the game such as powers and abilities. If this could be such that some combats could be done this way and others more abstractly, within a session, that would be great.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
but am trying to move on and view that as water under the bridge.
Sounds good, let's do that!

FWIW, I think I would like 5e better if it had a more 4e presentation, particularly if, as some have maintained, there are lots of 4e ideas under the hood that I have missed. As I said above I think presentation matters a lot.
Are you saying that if 5e had a presentation more like 4e you would go from disliking it to liking it or are you saying you would go from disliking it to disliking it less?

I mentioned one thing I would love in my ideal 6e, which is the option to bring back tactical combat - perhaps a grid, or perhaps zonal (but sufficient to enable things like flanking and opportunity attacks), and for this to be supported by other aspects of the game such as powers and abilities. If this could be such that some combats could be done this way and others more abstractly, within a session, that would be great.
I think that would be cool. I think they wanted to do this. I think when attempting it they found doing those things were a bit mutually exclusive. Either you have a game built around tactical combat where abilities all reference the grid and interact with the tactical aspects or you have a game that you can play TOTM, where grid based tactical considerations can't really come up and so abilities don't reference them.

IMO It's partially why so little of the game actually ended up modular as they stated was their initial intent.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
I mentioned one thing I would love in my ideal 6e, which is the option to bring back tactical combat - perhaps a grid, or perhaps zonal (but sufficient to enable things like flanking and opportunity attacks), and for this to be supported by other aspects of the game such as powers and abilities. If this could be such that some combats could be done this way and others more abstractly, within a session, that would be great.
My ideal is:

The core rules are strictly for theater of the mind, without grids, minis, or micromeasurements.

At the same time, a supplement is available that fully develops tactical grid combat, including class features, spells, and feats that refer to grid combat.

It would be helpful if this supplement also handles mass combat for armies, and somehow has mechanics that can manage the actions of individual characters as well as the abstractions of the actions of large groups.

With regard to theater of the mind, all distances should simplify into the following ballpark distances:

upto 3 feet (1 m): engage melee
upto 10 feet (3m): reach
upto 30 feet (10 m): close move/throw
upto 100 feet (30 m): lightningbolt
upto 300 feet (100 m): bowshot
 
Last edited:

The return of themes as another layer of PC character could help.

Some themes could give a feat. Others proficiencies, Others magic. Others a bonded magic item. And you sort them out by setting and magic leveland suggest which theme goes with which background.
a layer of class agnostic choice could be a good fit.
 

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top