Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
No it's not. A lot of people give official more weight than unofficial, even to the point of some DMs not allowing 3rd party products at all. That's meaning.
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D&D General Religion in D&D: Your Take
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Narrative and lore is very different from rules to me. That's why I made the IP exception. For everything else, official means nothing to any given table or individual.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
And I'm saying that, IMO there is no good reason to give WotC rules any more weight than any other developer, no matter how many people think otherwise. Pick the rules you and your group want to use.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
It doesn't matter if the reason is good or not. It still exists and has meaning. There's no good reason to value high stat bonuses in 5e, but a lot of people still feel like they are necessary and force 18's and 20's when they don't have to.
Li Shenron
Legend
Here's a summary of how I have done that in maybe the last 15 years or so.
First of all, I do not define religions in advance anymore in my games, I have forsaken all that even before 5e. No planned list of deities given to the players, or anything set in stone. This is actually part of my more general "no time wasted in top-down worldbuilding" ever again for me.
Lots of religions in practice, because this is a major drive for me to generate adventure/quest ideas, NPCs, social conflicts in the fantasy world and so on. I don't use real-world modern-times religions, but I am ok with both strictly fantasy religions as well as real-world obsolete religions.
For the same reason, a lot of uncertainty within those religions. Net separation between what the people in the fantasy world know or believe (religions) and what is the actual metaphisical reality (deities). The most powerful religious organization in the fantasy setting might worship a non-existance god, for what we know; or the same real deity might exist behind two opposing faiths. What exactly is a deity, how many they are, or even whether can you separate them from each other or not, is behind mortal comprehension. But your PC might be "sure" they know the truth if you wish.
Voadam
Legend
To follow up on this line of thought, while not prayer and gods specific belief supernaturally affecting reality is also the cosmological model in Mage the Ascension and the supernatural in Conspiracy X.
Marandahir
Crown-Forester (he/him)
My players tend to want a few key traits of their chosen deities.
So for example, I have a god of Death, Commerce, and Justice – sort of Asmodeus X Charon X Mercury, and the cleric of that god wanted to know like common doctrines they'd shout in battle like "For COIN AND DEATH!" We also have some pilgramage plotlines where the players were guarding a caravan and then it became like a Indiana Jones temple exploration when it all went south.
But we don't want to get too much into real world parallels, and my players in general don't want to deal with like real crisis of faith ontological and metaphysical questions when playing D&D. Just use it as a flavour dressing for sword and sorcery or steam punk etc.
So for example, I have a god of Death, Commerce, and Justice – sort of Asmodeus X Charon X Mercury, and the cleric of that god wanted to know like common doctrines they'd shout in battle like "For COIN AND DEATH!" We also have some pilgramage plotlines where the players were guarding a caravan and then it became like a Indiana Jones temple exploration when it all went south.
But we don't want to get too much into real world parallels, and my players in general don't want to deal with like real crisis of faith ontological and metaphysical questions when playing D&D. Just use it as a flavour dressing for sword and sorcery or steam punk etc.
rmcoen
Adventurer
I have alternated my approach to Religion and the Gods.
Some campaigns have had full custom Creation Myths, establishing custom pantheons; about half those games have the gods directly meddling, while the other half is "... and that's why they died/left/pulled-back."
More campaigns have used the (insert current edition) D&D pantheon, with the (standard at the time) lore that the gods have to answer prayers and help worshippers, or they lose their power -- but they have their favorites (i.e. PC religious classes, plus certain priests / towns / locations). Generally, "religion" in these campaigns comes in two forms: some people dedicate themselves to a certain god, while most people give prayers and offerings to whatever god's portfolio matters at that moment. So one farmer might be a Pelor devotee, while his neighbors sometimes pray to Pelor for good weather and harvests, but also Meilikki for their livestock (foaling, health), or even Erastus when they have to go to town (hoping the guard protect them from scoundrels). [Apologies if I got the diety names wrong.]
One campaign had a NPC who had raised himself up to demigod status make a deal with one of the PCs for worship, providing that PC certain bonus powers, in order to jumpstart the NPC's rise to true godhood.
Another campaign had the players -unwillingly!- becoming avatars of the gods in a direct struggle for the gods' survival against one of their own. (This resulted in each PC getting one or two iconic powers of their Patron - but so did the enemy "heroes".) Most of the PCs were willing soldiers, once they found out, but one PC played into the "I didn't ask for this!" storyline.
The current campaign has a period of history where "the gods went silent", but then slowly started to answer prayers again - weakly, and only when large numbers focused on the same desired result. Over time - before the campaign, still - power increased; at the time of campaign, a major city's congregation, led by a skillful priest, can accomplish Level 3 "miracles", while any good-sized village can occasionally manage a Level 1 "miracle". (Interestingly, the fanatic beliefs of cults enables even a small gathering of "non-spellcaster" cultists to pull off Level 1 or even the occasional Level 2 spell!) Due to the need for many believers focused on a single result in order to achieve "miracles", the rulers and priests of the land moved to have the pantheon worshipped as a whole. So while Pelor, Meilikki, Erastus, Moradin, Corellon, and all the others are named and have representation, the opportunistic farmer from earlier in my post would instead worship the Pantheon, at The Temple, and if everyone was praying for that good weather, then it might happen. (His neighbor, the Pelor fanatic, might gather secretly with his totally-loving-and-not-creepy-or-cultlike-at-all "extended family" at high noon in the mirrored solarium, and achieve miracles of healing and maybe the occasional searing light directed at a rival's crops...)
In this campaign, though, for Story reasons that have not been investigated by the PCs, the gods have favorites: Clerics and Paladins. These folk can achieve, on their own, what it might take dozens or even hundreds of parishioners to accomplish - and in moments, not after hours of praying! These PCs (and the rare NPC) have a tremendous standing in society - and are subject to incredible political pressures.
[As a reference point, the average joe in the world is roughly 2nd or 3rd level, elites are 3rd and 4th (with extra feats or training), and the pinnacle celebrities are 5th level. All spellcasting classes are subject to varying levels of political and social control, for Story reasons. And PCs were capped at 5th until certain conditions were met; they are currently capped at 8th, until other conditions are met - but they are accumulating additional feats and powers in lieu of level-up.]
So the average person believes in the Gods, as a whole, and goes to Temple in order to help the congregation achieve miracles. And the Gods answer the "loudest" and "most fervent" prayers - plus their favorites! Meanwhile, the PC dwarven war cleric worships Moradin specifically, and selects his spells along the themes of just Moradin's portfolio... but also metagames his "faith" when he really wants a different spell, like water breathing!
Some campaigns have had full custom Creation Myths, establishing custom pantheons; about half those games have the gods directly meddling, while the other half is "... and that's why they died/left/pulled-back."
More campaigns have used the (insert current edition) D&D pantheon, with the (standard at the time) lore that the gods have to answer prayers and help worshippers, or they lose their power -- but they have their favorites (i.e. PC religious classes, plus certain priests / towns / locations). Generally, "religion" in these campaigns comes in two forms: some people dedicate themselves to a certain god, while most people give prayers and offerings to whatever god's portfolio matters at that moment. So one farmer might be a Pelor devotee, while his neighbors sometimes pray to Pelor for good weather and harvests, but also Meilikki for their livestock (foaling, health), or even Erastus when they have to go to town (hoping the guard protect them from scoundrels). [Apologies if I got the diety names wrong.]
One campaign had a NPC who had raised himself up to demigod status make a deal with one of the PCs for worship, providing that PC certain bonus powers, in order to jumpstart the NPC's rise to true godhood.
Another campaign had the players -unwillingly!- becoming avatars of the gods in a direct struggle for the gods' survival against one of their own. (This resulted in each PC getting one or two iconic powers of their Patron - but so did the enemy "heroes".) Most of the PCs were willing soldiers, once they found out, but one PC played into the "I didn't ask for this!" storyline.
The current campaign has a period of history where "the gods went silent", but then slowly started to answer prayers again - weakly, and only when large numbers focused on the same desired result. Over time - before the campaign, still - power increased; at the time of campaign, a major city's congregation, led by a skillful priest, can accomplish Level 3 "miracles", while any good-sized village can occasionally manage a Level 1 "miracle". (Interestingly, the fanatic beliefs of cults enables even a small gathering of "non-spellcaster" cultists to pull off Level 1 or even the occasional Level 2 spell!) Due to the need for many believers focused on a single result in order to achieve "miracles", the rulers and priests of the land moved to have the pantheon worshipped as a whole. So while Pelor, Meilikki, Erastus, Moradin, Corellon, and all the others are named and have representation, the opportunistic farmer from earlier in my post would instead worship the Pantheon, at The Temple, and if everyone was praying for that good weather, then it might happen. (His neighbor, the Pelor fanatic, might gather secretly with his totally-loving-and-not-creepy-or-cultlike-at-all "extended family" at high noon in the mirrored solarium, and achieve miracles of healing and maybe the occasional searing light directed at a rival's crops...)
In this campaign, though, for Story reasons that have not been investigated by the PCs, the gods have favorites: Clerics and Paladins. These folk can achieve, on their own, what it might take dozens or even hundreds of parishioners to accomplish - and in moments, not after hours of praying! These PCs (and the rare NPC) have a tremendous standing in society - and are subject to incredible political pressures.
[As a reference point, the average joe in the world is roughly 2nd or 3rd level, elites are 3rd and 4th (with extra feats or training), and the pinnacle celebrities are 5th level. All spellcasting classes are subject to varying levels of political and social control, for Story reasons. And PCs were capped at 5th until certain conditions were met; they are currently capped at 8th, until other conditions are met - but they are accumulating additional feats and powers in lieu of level-up.]
So the average person believes in the Gods, as a whole, and goes to Temple in order to help the congregation achieve miracles. And the Gods answer the "loudest" and "most fervent" prayers - plus their favorites! Meanwhile, the PC dwarven war cleric worships Moradin specifically, and selects his spells along the themes of just Moradin's portfolio... but also metagames his "faith" when he really wants a different spell, like water breathing!
Voadam
Legend
Do you have a reference for 2e clerics being more worshiping "the gods" instead of "a god"?
My 2e PH PDF under priests and clerics it says:
The priest is a believer and advocate of a god from a particular mythos. More than just a follower, he intercedes and acts on behalf of others, seeking to use his powers to advance the beliefs of his mythos.
***
The most common type of priest is the cleric. The cleric may be an adherent of any religion (though if the DM designs a specific mythos, the cleric’s abilities and spells may be changed—see following).
***
The cleric receives his spells as insight directly from his deity (the deity does not need to make a personal appearance to grant the spells the cleric prays for), as a sign of and reward for his faith, so he must take care not to abuse his power lest it be taken away as punishment.
***
In the simplest version of the AD&D game, clerics serve religions that can be generally described as “good” or “evil.” Nothing more needs to be said about it; the game will play perfectly well at this level. However, a DM who has taken the time to create a detailed campaign world has often spent some of that time devising elaborate pantheons, either unique creations or adaptations from history or literature. If the option is open (and only your DM can decide), you may want your character to adhere to a particular mythos, taking advantage of the detail and color your DM has provided. If your character follows a particular mythos, expect him to have abilities, spells, and restrictions different from the generic cleric.
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pukunui
Legend
That reminds me of how gods work in Discworld. Small Gods explores the idea in great detail.
Revisiting my homebrew world, I decided that divine magic didn't exist and there were no clerics or paladins. Taking a page from the elemental cultists in Princes of the Apocalypse, magic-wielding priests would actually be sorcerers or warlocks mostly. Druids became the priests of the "old gods".
Please note: when I first developed the world and its religions, I was still operating on the classic D&D model of equating species and culture (and thus religion). Hence why the breakdown is as follows (putting it in a spoiler block just for space-saving purposes):
Dragonborn: These people hail from a mist-shrouded swampland, where long ago calamity befell the God-Empress and her daughters (rumored to be dragons) and sent the dragonborn into a diaspora. Today, the dragonborn tend not to worship gods or follow abstract philosophies.
Dwarves: Ripped straight from Dragon Age, the dwarves of my world consider themselves to be the Children of the Stone, a Mother Earth-like entity. Much of their culture revolves around giving thanks to the Stone for its blessings, and when dwarves die underground, they "return to the Stone". But they don't worship the Stone as a god. The closest things they have to gods are their paragons - revered ancestors who must have done something to advance dwarven culture in some way. The accompanying list of example paragons included some classic D&D dwarven deities, like Moradin, as well as some from the Dragon Age setting, like Caradin.
Elves: The high elves / eladrin consider themselves to be too sophisticated for childish notions like religion. Most are agnostic at best. They pay obeisance to the mightiest archfey among them but don't worship them as gods. The wood elves, however, still worship the ancient pantheon of primal elven deities, which I called the Seldarine, but they were a mixture of the elven deities from both D&D and Dragon Age. The drow were all still under the thumb of the treacherous Lolth.
Gnomes: For the gnomes, I just went with the FR "Lords of the Golden Hills", complete with the idea that there were once ladies among them but they had mysteriously disappeared long ago. Gnomes who suffer from wanderlust are said to have "gone looking for the Ladies". (I suspect this was inspired by Tolkien's tale of the missing Entwives.)
Halflings: The halflings of my setting take a casual, chill approach to religion, but when they can be bothered, they follow the tenets of a trio of female deities they cheekily refer to as the Sisterhood. The oldest sister is Yondalla, the middle sister is Cyrrollalee, and the youngest sister is only ever referred to as "the Lady" (aka "Lady Luck") but who may or may not be Avandra. It is thought to speak the Lady's name is to invite her displeasure, thus causing you much misfortune. (I specifically got this last idea from Discworld, but I expect that Pratchett got it from somewhere else himself.)
Humans: As the usual dominant species, humans got several religions. Firstly, there are the old primeval nature-themed gods, which are modeled on the old Celtic, Norse, and other pagan religions of Europe. I included a random grab-bag of gods from various fantasy and real world mythologies, including Auril, the Devourer, Freya, Malar, Oghma, and the Raven Queen. Secondly, there was the Andarian Septry, which is a modified version of the Faith of the Seven from Game of Thrones. So there's a single god with seven aspects (Mother, Father, Maiden, Smith, etc). And then there are the fanatical, dualistic Lightbringers, who follow the Lord of Light in his quest to defeat the Great Other (another GoT rip-off).
And that was about it really.
If I ever revisit this homebrew world, I would most likely revisit a lot of this.
Dwarves: Ripped straight from Dragon Age, the dwarves of my world consider themselves to be the Children of the Stone, a Mother Earth-like entity. Much of their culture revolves around giving thanks to the Stone for its blessings, and when dwarves die underground, they "return to the Stone". But they don't worship the Stone as a god. The closest things they have to gods are their paragons - revered ancestors who must have done something to advance dwarven culture in some way. The accompanying list of example paragons included some classic D&D dwarven deities, like Moradin, as well as some from the Dragon Age setting, like Caradin.
Elves: The high elves / eladrin consider themselves to be too sophisticated for childish notions like religion. Most are agnostic at best. They pay obeisance to the mightiest archfey among them but don't worship them as gods. The wood elves, however, still worship the ancient pantheon of primal elven deities, which I called the Seldarine, but they were a mixture of the elven deities from both D&D and Dragon Age. The drow were all still under the thumb of the treacherous Lolth.
Gnomes: For the gnomes, I just went with the FR "Lords of the Golden Hills", complete with the idea that there were once ladies among them but they had mysteriously disappeared long ago. Gnomes who suffer from wanderlust are said to have "gone looking for the Ladies". (I suspect this was inspired by Tolkien's tale of the missing Entwives.)
Halflings: The halflings of my setting take a casual, chill approach to religion, but when they can be bothered, they follow the tenets of a trio of female deities they cheekily refer to as the Sisterhood. The oldest sister is Yondalla, the middle sister is Cyrrollalee, and the youngest sister is only ever referred to as "the Lady" (aka "Lady Luck") but who may or may not be Avandra. It is thought to speak the Lady's name is to invite her displeasure, thus causing you much misfortune. (I specifically got this last idea from Discworld, but I expect that Pratchett got it from somewhere else himself.)
Humans: As the usual dominant species, humans got several religions. Firstly, there are the old primeval nature-themed gods, which are modeled on the old Celtic, Norse, and other pagan religions of Europe. I included a random grab-bag of gods from various fantasy and real world mythologies, including Auril, the Devourer, Freya, Malar, Oghma, and the Raven Queen. Secondly, there was the Andarian Septry, which is a modified version of the Faith of the Seven from Game of Thrones. So there's a single god with seven aspects (Mother, Father, Maiden, Smith, etc). And then there are the fanatical, dualistic Lightbringers, who follow the Lord of Light in his quest to defeat the Great Other (another GoT rip-off).
And that was about it really.
If I ever revisit this homebrew world, I would most likely revisit a lot of this.
