D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Faolyn]

I'm not sure that many of those meet the bar and pretty sure about half or so falling into things that have been said a good female darklord should avoid if they were a female instead. Anhktepot - Mistipedia

• Lukas tried to unite the wolfweres but was snubbed & raged across cormyr. A strong wolfwere like Harkon isn't complete without a family/pack so goes evil. Pretty sure this goes into territory a darklord meeting the bar shouldn't

Harkon's main desire is power, not family. It's why he was cursed with a tiny, disorganized domain.

• Vlad Drakov Numerous wives & slave concubines. A darklord doesn't need an orgy of lust to be complete & there are less savory ways of describing how it reflects on him, but is this a disqualifier if he were Vladia Drakov or something from the start?

This is because he's all manly and powerful, donchaknow? It's not about romance or love for him; it's about power. But he does a lot more than just roll around with his harem all day--he kills people, goes hunting (remember, his whole falcon thing comes from his love of the birds and how much he loves hunting with them), and wages war, even though he does the latter very badly. A female version could do the same things, down to having a harem of her own, and still not be defined by her need for men.

• Diamabel Really not much to say given the simplicity so this shape changing darklord probably meets the bar unless the whole angelic being by day/undead horror by night ladyhawk thing focuses too much on physical looks, wouldnt it tick a nonobox if so?

No, because again, this reflects his religious zeal and his desire to be transformed into an angel (a "being of light"), not his desire for good looks. A woman who wanted to be turned into an angel would not be the same as one who was obsessed with her looks or hated people who were prettier than she was.

• Ankhtepot Gaining immortality gave him a touch of death not even his family was safe from & it cost him his wife to gain. Spiraling out into evil without his wife I'm rather sure was a nonobox if the genders were reversed.

He started out wanting immortality and razed an entire temple when the priests couldn't grant it to him. Then he was cursed and accidentally killed his family by touching them. Him killing his family didn't make him evil; it was the other way around.

• Esan, bit bland but probably meets the bar.

Esan would be fine as a woman.

• Vecna & Kas These two multisetting crossovers probably meet the bar but I don't care to dig into them enough given all their rehashing over the years

I didn't really bother with either of them because I dislike Vecna's appearance in Ravenloft. But a goddess of evil secrets would be absolutely fine, if you actually want the Dark Powers to be able or willing to to trap deities.

• Meredoth That whole mommy issues thing?... I get the feeling that being evil because mommy loved drugs more than him bit would be a nonobox if flipped but it's listed as "noncannon" so probably meets the bar

The Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer is in fact non-canon, but even with mommy issues, he'd be fine if he were a woman instead. His goal is magical experimentation, not pining after love.

• Sediam They laughed at his tragedy. I guess he meets the lofty bar but hard to tell given the depth from a cursory search.
• Juste Lemot Sediam Juste is his full name so I'm going to italic underline since it's basically a duplicate?

An artist who feels misunderstood and unappreciated is fine for a Darklord, whether male or female.

• Sodo I think this one depeds on if killing his elders & youngers was or counts as patricide/matricide or familicide? Three quarters bold tentative maybe meets the bar?

Why would either be a bar?

• Dominiani/ dr Declaud Heinfroth Something about trying to sedice harkon's daughter but not sure if seductor or against the idea... isn't a seductress a nonobox if so? Then there's the hole hereditary madness & seeking to cure his family's madness& I'm not sure if going evil because of sick family is a nonobox or not. With two maybe's I'm going to give it a half bold

Is the person's entire goal to be a seducer? Is it that person's only tool? Yes to both? Boring. No to both? It's fine. Dr. Heinfroth could easily be a woman.

I don't think you truly understand what I'm saying here, so let me repeat it: Female Darklords should be as varied in origin and motivation as male darklords are. So far, as has been repeatedly pointed out, basically every female Darklord has one of the following personalities:

Wants love, can't get it, so lashes out at everyone else.
Wants to be pretty, can't get it, so lashes out at everyone else.

With the only exceptions being :

A woman who slept her way to the top, was turned into monster, and now has no goal but to eat hearts, who now rules a domain whose only purpose is to go in, kill the Darklord, and leave. This would be boring whether Tiyet was male or female.

An awful-lawful purityrannical ex-paladin who refuses to believe she's fallen. She has an entire country that, IIRC, actually likes her, but only because she fabricates monsters to save everyone from. This is actually interesting! Elana is active, she has personality, and goals. She might be a terrible person, but she's a person instead of a walking stereotype.

 

[Faolyn]

This is kind of the point I am trying to make.

"The male characters suck too" isn't a good argument.

Many of the least interesting domain lords are male,

Since the vast majority of Darklords are male, that's not at all surprising.

and it is because they are not as much about issues of love, family, etc. I think people also need to remember this was the 90s ,it was the decade that gave us Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, which turned Dracula into a character motivated by love.

Lust. Please don't associate obsession with actual love.

With the female domain lords, I don't think they were saying women are only about these things, or only fulfilled by these things.

Yes, they really were. It is a very common belief, both in the past and now, that women need to have men, that we need to have children, that we are literally failing as women if we don't.

Take a look at girl's toys. Even nowadays, so many of them are designed around dating, fashion, or taking care of babies. Take a look at subreddits like nothowgirlswork, menwritingwomen, and pointlesslygendered. Take a look at things designed for women.

While Ravenloft's writers were probably not thinking that women need men and babies, they still lived in a society permeated by those beliefs, and were taking from horror books and movies that were filled with those beliefs.

As I pointed out, they have more motivations, backstory and goals than just those things if you read the entries or read the material in the domain entries and the card stocks.

I've read them all, and have read them multiple times over the decades.

What I felt they were trying to do was make cool female villains, who fit more into the mold of a Strahd or Phantom. Because that was cool at the time (Jacqueline Renier's character is actually a trope I associate more with male villains from that era).

And why is that?

 

[Faolyn]

Sure.

But if (and this is part of the gothic genre) the villain is supposed to be sympathetic, they need to have relatable motivations. And "Mor Powah" is not a motivation I can relate to.

The desire for power and control are as much fundamental human needs as the need for romance. As are needs to be appreciated, to create art, to prove one's worth, to get justice,

And again, having a desire for romance is fine. Having that as your only purpose is boring and stereotypically sexist when it applies to women.

Ravenloft is chock full of badly written shallow male villains.

Which as I said elsewhere, is not an excuse.

We see this in many of the Ravenloft domains - they are modelled on the 19th Century, implying that opportunities for women in those settings are decidedly limited - much more so than they would have been in the 9th.

Which is why I said I wanted new female Darklords with motivations other than just romance.

And that's not really much of an excuse, because while Ravenloft has a lot more real-world basis than most D&D settings, it's still fantasy and has had few problems with women in political power (nobody has tried to depose the female political leaders in favor of a male, for instance).

But for some reason, a lot of people who, judging by comments and usernames are male, seem to think that I'm attacking the whole institution of romance by saying that women should have a motivation beyond it.

After all, it's not like you or Bedrockgames or some of the others have said, "Hey, maybe those female darklords could use some rewrite to give them additional interests or at least something to do all day other than have parties and ruin other people's relationships," or "You know, I really like Aderre and Reneir and Boritsi, but yeah, we could use us a new strong Core-realms Darklady who don't need no man."

Instead you guys double down on how important romance is, and how the male Darklords suck too so it's OK, how it's based on old horror novels like it's impossible to create a Domain that isn't based on them, making it really seem to me that you have a problem with the idea of women not being overly devoted to men.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Lust. Please don't associate obsession with actual love.

The movie was about love and lust. But I think the love between Mina and Dracula was certainly love. It was dark, supernatural, but it wasn't based on physical lust. I think you can say it is a love that begins selfishly, and ends with Dracula letting go, putting Mina ahead of himself. And Mina is the one who brings that about. It was still horror. No one was trying to say this was a wholesome relationship.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And why is that?

I don't know. Those kinds of characters were the rage at the time. I think there were a lot of reasons, a lot of it was that horror was moving in a more introspective, intelligent and emotional direction I think. I also think men were opening up more to those things. There was also a revived interest in gothic horror. But I can't really say why

 

[Bedrockgames]

"The male characters suck too" isn't a good argument.

This isn't what I was trying to say. I think most of the male domain lords are really well done in the black box. My point was that the ones that appealed to me least, the ones I found the most dull or that just didn't resonate with me, were the ones doing what you are saying the female domain lords are not doing (I realize this is terribly awkward phrasing---but struggling to come up with precision here). Not saying other people didn't like them. Just I found characters like that less interesting than the ones motivated by romance, familial needs, etc. And my point was also that the female domain lords were not boring. I think they were very well done and well crafted

 

[Bedrockgames]

I've read them all, and have read them multiple times over the decades.

So have I. I think we just have very different takes on them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yes, they really were. It is a very common belief, both in the past and now, that women need to have men, that we need to have children, that we are literally failing as women if we don't.

I really don't think this was the message at all. I don't think it is at all clear this is what they were trying to say. I am not saying this belief didn't exist, or that some didn't hold it. I never got the impression that was the message of the writing in Ravenloft, nor do I think it was some kind of internalized thing going on. Writers and designers tackle themes and topics for all kinds of reasons. For all we know one of the two designers of the black boxed set were grappling with issues of motherhood, children, etc....and that is why you see it repeated as a theme. It may just be they felt those kinds of motivations and characters worked well for horror, or reflected the gothic tradition well (Mary Shelley left a huge stamp on horror and a lot of the reason motherhood is such a theme in Frankenstein is because of her personal history). Perhaps they used that as a way of saying this it is bad to make women believe they can only be content if they have a man and a baby (I think the fact that these are villains and these motivations are driving them to evil would make that a sound analysis). I don't think either of us can say for sure why these themes are there (unless Bruce Nesmith or Andria Hayday have commented on them). I do think we disagree on how central they are (but we've already hashed over characters like Gabrielle Aderre, Ivana Boritsi and Jacqueline Renier so I think it would be pedantic for me to repeat my points here).

 

[Bedrockgames]

While Ravenloft's writers were probably not thinking that women need men and babies, they still lived in a society permeated by those beliefs, and were taking from horror books and movies that were filled with those beliefs.

I don't know. It wasn't the 1950s. It was the early 90s and there was a lot of progressive thought happening, especially in the gaming community. About half my group was female at this point, it was really common, at least where I lived, for women to focus on having a career (in fact a knew a lot of women, my mom included, who chose to focus more on raising children and that was seen by many as something of a negative, so I don't think it is entirely fair to characterize this time in that way). But more than that, we can't get into their heads. Maybe they were projecting things they had absorbed. Maybe they were projecting things that were personally meaningful to them (and maybe if someone else had been writing the black boxed set, we'd have had female characters focused on something else). For me the bottom line isn't whether these characters line up with today's sensibilities, but whether they work as believable and effective horror villains. I think there is no doubt were this written today, it would be more balanced overall. But it wasn't written today. I don't think we can judge it by today's standards in that respect (especially when it was ahead of its time in a lot ways).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Since the vast majority of Darklords are male, that's not at all surprising.

Like I said, they definitely should have had more female dark lords.