D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Alzrius]

Soth was the ultimate bad-ass in Krynn, a sort of Darth Vader figure. To see his frustration as powerful as he was, not be able to deal with a simple vampire, was fascinating.

Well, Strahd is hardly a "simple vampire." Remember, when Soth attempted to interrogate Madame Girani, one of his first questions was to seek confirmation that Strahd was a powerful necromancer, angrily noting that it takes "more than a dabbler" to raise zombies who could speak a name and fight on after their limbs had been severed when the old lady tried to give him vague rumors about Strahd's abilities.

That Soth was surprised when his initial attempt to overpower Strahd directly failed (Strahd catching Soth's punch, since he has 19 Strength to Soth's 18/99) was indicative of him underestimating Strahd despite having some idea that he was a powerful spellcaster (though with 75% magic resistance, reflecting a spell back at the caster on a roll of 11 or less, he shouldn't have backed down in the face of Strahd's threat to use magic). Even so, I liked how he deeply resented Strahd's presumption that he was beaten, wrecking his home and later coming back for a rematch, only to be distracted by the prospect of getting revenge on Caradoc.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Well, Strahd is hardly a "simple vampire."

I realize that, but my point was as a reader I was unaware of his nature, and in any other setting I would assume Soth beats a vampire pretty handily, so I was seeing it from Soth's point of view in that moment (which was great because there was this dawning horror that strahd was more powerful than a normal vampire, that he had special ties to the land, and that the land played by its own rules: so seeing a character like Soth so powerful suddenly, was good horror)

Also I just found this characterization of Soth one of the best

Yes in terms of the details, it has been a long time since I read it, so i don't recall the precise trajectory of Soth acquiring that knowledge. I just remember being surprised by how powerful Strahd was and how trapped Soth was in this setting (I just didn't have any working knowledge of Ravenloft at that point and was a lot more familiar with Krynn)

 

[Faolyn]

When I originally asked the question it was because you seem to be setting the bar extremely high with wanting not just one but many female darklords that don't tick this box that box come near these other boxes. If the bar of expectations your setting for wotc to meet then all of fiction & human history should have a slew of options that could simply be rattled off or you are instead asking that WotC somehow elevate themselves into some form of higher being not present often enough to record the history of or write fiction involving individuals meeting your bar often enough to name even one or two off the top of your head.

I (A) came up with a list of potential female Darklords earlier; (B) because of stupid anxiety issues associated with copying other people's works, hate copying from existing fiction; (C) don't watch much TV in general, and lately have only been watching cartoons* because real life is too depressing ATM, also, my favorite novels tend to not have Darklord-style villains in them; and (D) have terrible recall, because of several disabilities I have, thank you very much.

As for reality... Someone based off Ching Shih or La Voisin, perhaps? A pirate domain not based on Blackbeard would be cool. And La Voisin would very much be a power behind the throne, the advisor to the nobles but not a political leader by any means.

There's a ton of stuff out there. I'm not required to come up with it at the drop of a hat.

---

* I mean, I could imagine a domain based on the Animaniacs episode "The Cutening," where everyone is happy and kawaii and singing all the time and all the inanimate objects are alive and no free will is allowed and it's all under the rule of Darklord Princess Angelina Contessa Louisa Francesca Banana Fanna Fo Fesca III. But that would be silly.

 

[Faolyn]

I was incredibly lonely. If anything would have driven me off the deep end it would be that.

And I, a woman, the exact opposite in every way. Never wanted a spouse, never wanted children, don't even really get lonely. It's almost like there's a huge spectrum and not everyone has the same needs for romance and children, right?

And yet all but two of the female Darklords are treated in the exact same way (and of the two that aren't, one has no apparent post-DL'ed goals or desires that I can find other than to eat hearts and get killed by the PCs). They can't have the men, the children, the good looks, so they destroy everyone who is happy.

I really wish you guys would understand what I'm talking about. You want Darklords who have a desire for romance or for children? Fine! That's great! Seriously! I can appreciate such desires as a humanifying aspect of a villain. It works well. But it's boring if that's the Darklord's only goal--just like "she wants to eat your heart, and that's her only interest" is boring--and it's sexist when that's the sole purpose of basically every one of the women while the men have complex, layered interests.

 

[humble minion]

I get what you're saying. A very incomplete list of male darklords whose backstories are not related to family, romance, desire etc in any way:

Harkon Lukas, Vlad Drakov, Diamabel, Ankhtepot, Easan, Vecna, Kas, Meredoth, Lemot Sediam Juste, Sodo, Dr Dominiani. And that's excluding people like Yagno Patrovna and Markov whose families were basically treated as collateral damage in their pursuit of non-family-related obsessions.

Even given the gender imbalance between male and female Darklords (which is another issue...) there's nothing like the representation of non-family-related backstories among female darklords than there is among male darklords.

 

[tetrasodium]

I get what you're saying. A very incomplete list of male darklords whose backstories are not related to family, romance, desire etc in any way:

Harkon Lukas, Vlad Drakov, Diamabel, Ankhtepot, Easan, Vecna, Kas, Meredoth, Lemot Sediam Juste, Sodo, Dr Dominiani. And that's excluding people like Yagno Patrovna and Markov whose families were basically treated as collateral damage in their pursuit of non-family-related obsessions.

Even given the gender imbalance between male and female Darklords (which is another issue...) there's nothing like the representation of non-family-related backstories among female darklords than there is among male darklords.

I'm not sure that many of those meet the bar and pretty sure about half or so falling into things that have been said a good female darklord should avoid if they were a female instead. Anhktepot - Mistipedia

• Lukas tried to unite the wolfweres but was snubbed & raged across cormyr. A strong wolfwere like Harkon isn't complete without a family/pack so goes evil. Pretty sure this goes into territory a darklord meeting the bar shouldn't
• Vlad Drakov Numerous wives & slave concubines. A darklord doesn't need an orgy of lust to be complete & there are less savory ways of describing how it reflects on him, but is this a disqualifier if he were Vladia Drakov or something from the start?
• Diamabel Really not much to say given the simplicity so this shape changing darklord probably meets the bar unless the whole angelic being by day/undead horror by night ladyhawk thing focuses too much on physical looks, wouldnt it tick a nonobox if so?
• Ankhtepot Gaining immortality gave him a touch of death not even his family was safe from & it cost him his wife to gain. Spiraling out into evil without his wife I'm rather sure was a nonobox if the genders were reversed.
• Esan, bit bland but probably meets the bar.
• Vecna & Kas These two multisetting crossovers probably meet the bar but I don't care to dig into them enough given all their rehashing over the years
• Meredoth That whole mommy issues thing?... I get the feeling that being evil because mommy loved drugs more than him bit would be a nonobox if flipped but it's listed as "noncannon" so probably meets the bar
• Sediam They laughed at his tragedy. I guess he meets the lofty bar but hard to tell given the depth from a cursory search.
• Juste Lemot Sediam Juste is his full name so I'm going to italic underline since it's basically a duplicate?
• Sodo I think this one depeds on if killing his elders & youngers was or counts as patricide/matricide or familicide? Three quarters bold tentative maybe meets the bar?
• Dominiani/ dr Declaud Heinfroth Something about trying to sedice harkon's daughter but not sure if seductor or against the idea... isn't a seductress a nonobox if so? Then there's the hole hereditary madness & seeking to cure his family's madness& I'm not sure if going evil because of sick family is a nonobox or not. With two maybe's I'm going to give it a half bold

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And I, a woman, the exact opposite in every way. Never wanted a spouse, never wanted children, don't even really get lonely. It's almost like there's a huge spectrum and not everyone has the same needs for romance and children, right?/

Sure.

But if (and this is part of the gothic genre) the villain is supposed to be sympathetic, they need to have relatable motivations. And "Mor Powah" is not a motivation I can relate to. Ravenloft is chock full of badly written shallow male villains.

But there are issues with the Gothic genre as a whole. It is principally a 19th Century genre. A time when, at least in Britain, women where still legally the property of their male relatives. So, when Mary Shelley chose to write an allegory about her post-natal depression, she had to make her protagonist male, because a female doctor would be unimaginable to her (largely female) readers. At that time reading fiction was an activity largely confined to middle-class women.

We see this in many of the Ravenloft domains - they are modelled on the 19th Century, implying that opportunities for women in those settings are decidedly limited - much more so than they would have been in the 9th.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I really wish you guys would understand what I'm talking about. You want Darklords who have a desire for romance or for children? Fine! That's great! Seriously! I can appreciate such desires as a humanifying aspect of a villain. It works well. But it's boring if that's the Darklord's only goal--just like "she wants to eat your heart, and that's her only interest" is boring--and it's sexist when that's the sole purpose of basically every one of the women while the men have complex, layered interests.

I feel like I understand your argument, I just disagree with you about it (and it is fine, I can't demand you agree with me, any more than you can demand I agree with you: we can only respect that we have different perspectives on where the line succeeded and failed in its characters). I think these are quality characters and not boring. They have very interesting backgrounds and they are more varied than just being reduced to wanting a baby or something. In the cases of the original boxed set, that wasn't their only goal. I pointed out how much more complex Gabrielle Aderre and Jacqueline Renier are. You keep reducing them to that one aspect. Not saying it wouldn't be good to have more female domain lords covering more ground. But the three big lords that keep getting mentioned are three of the best domain lords in all of Ravenloft. I don't think these bullet point critics of "she wants to have a baby so hates men" captures what the characters are actually about, and even if it did: you can do that well. It could be problematic, all the women are written around love, desiring a home, or a child, and it could still be quality design and writing (and to be clear not suggesting the new material ought to be written that way: I am just saying I don't think it makes sense for us to hold all books and games in history to a quality standard based on this kind of modern sensibility about how men and women should be written as characters). They have layered interests. And they are also very terrifying and effective villains, which is where we should be judging them in terms of quality of writing (not saying the new ravenloft villains need to follow these patterns, I just don't think it is a fair reading of the original material---especially when you consider the source material). Also like Paul, I think more of the male domain lords should have had these kinds of motivations because it fits with gothic and it makes for more sympathetic, impactful villains (there is a reason the boxed set highlighted the Monsters "I ought to be thy Adam" speech when it is trying to demonstrate how evil and villainy were meant to work in Ravenloft.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Ravenloft is chock full of badly written shallow male villains.

This is kind of the point I am trying to make. Many of the least interesting domain lords are male, and it is because they are not as much about issues of love, family, etc. I think people also need to remember this was the 90s ,it was the decade that gave us Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, which turned Dracula into a character motivated by love. And the broadway play Phantom of the Opera was still cultural relevant as it had come out just a few years before the boxed set was released. There was an appetite for villains who desired love, beauty, acceptance, family but couldn't attain those things. And they were considered some of the best villain roles. That kind of theme was in the air at the time. It is one of the reasons why a character like Soth worked in the setting. With the female domain lords, I don't think they were saying women are only about these things, or only fulfilled by these things. As I pointed out, they have more motivations, backstory and goals than just those things if you read the entries or read the material in the domain entries and the card stocks. What I felt they were trying to do was make cool female villains, who fit more into the mold of a Strahd or Phantom. Because that was cool at the time (Jacqueline Renier's character is actually a trope I associate more with male villains from that era).

 

[humble minion]

Jacqueline Renier's character is actually a trope I associate more with male villains from that era

Jacqueline Renier’s curse is, in basically every way that matters, a gender-flipped version of Dominic d’Honaire’s curse.