D&D (2024) Ranger 2024 is a bigger joke than Ranger 2014:

[Micah Sweet]

I like Rangers getting "primal" spellcasting, but that is because I accept the canon that the multiverse of D&D has lots of magic in it. Base races cast spells as part of their inherent function.

I don't play Harn.

But I understand the desire to have a spell-less ranger. Or a spell-less bard. Or an invocation-only warlock. I'm glad if a lot of 3rd parties create balanced, fun, spell-less rangers. I as a DM would likely allow them at my table as long as they weren't obviously busted (which should be less of a problem in the new paradigm of flexibility and effectiveness that the 2024 classes embrace).

I dream of playing (or at least reading) Harn.

 

[Rocker26a]

It's quiet attacks, especially repeatable ones, that is not good.

I think it feels worse just on the face of it than it materially would be in-game.
Unless you have just problem players, in which case, if that wasn't on the table they'd be doing something else.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The ranger casting without verbal components (or somatic) is an old idea. The difficulty with bringing it up as a problem right now is - we don't know how it may interact with other class abilities. And since everyone likes to complain (or cheer) about the min/max multi-class combination, then we shouldn't be judging until we see gameplay.

I feel like issues with OP multiclass combinations should be handled at the table level, not legislated by the designers.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Yeah that's a nice way of considering it. I tend to contextualize it along the lines of "spellcasting to a Ranger is like Displacement is to a Displacer Beast, or Teleporting is to a Blink Dog, it's as natural and instinctual as any magical ability is for any other magical creature, because that's fundamentally what a Ranger is.", but I like that context as well.

we need to reintroduce extraordinary skill as a fundamental concept back to DnD, rather than making everything spells.

 

[Micah Sweet]

we need to reintroduce extraordinary skill as a fundamental concept in to DnD, rather than making everything spells.

This sort of thing is baked into Level Up.

Seriously, I think you personally would really like it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

This sort of thing is baked into Level Up.

Seriously, I think you personally would really like it.

i don't doubt i probably would but i don't even get around to playing standard DnD.

 

[Rocker26a]

we need to reintroduce extraordinary skill as a fundamental concept in to DnD, rather than making everything spells.

Yeah honestly, there are a few legacy terms/concepts that seem like they'd solve a lot just by being reintegrated into the lexicon, they don't even necessarily have to have entirely new rules penned around them.
Like I seem to remember when 5E started dipping it's toes into offering Psionic stuff, there were similar growing pains to all this.

 

[Minigiant]

You're treating magic and spellcasting as entirely homogenous, it's like an extension of that point "well why doesn't everyone in a fantasy setting learn magic", not everyone can. Not everyone has learned the right lessons, not everyone can apply the right lens... And even if something does click into place for you, that's only one approach amongst many. A Wizard is different to a Cleric is different to a Bard. And so for the half casters and beneath. "oh well these classes flatly know more about/practice more magic so they should have access to every practice" doesn't scan.

Like I was just reading some of Berserk this week, and there's a part where the gang go to the Elf homeland that's also home to a small conclave of mages. And they're dumbfounded by the two magic users in the group's ability to practice magic without drawing a magic circle first, nevermind the magic they actually demonstrate. That's what it reminds me of (obviously extremely different language and details for the magic, but nevertheless).

Core Canon...
D&D magic is entirely homogenous

You can change that

But core lore, an elf who learn sleep 100 years ago is casting the same spell spell as a human apprentice today. They just have their own flourishes and signature to it.

That's why casters share spells and can learn other people spells and can learn new spells that already exist without additional training.

You can change that. But once you do a LOT of D&D's magic system falls apart.

 

[mellored]

I think it feels worse just on the face of it than it materially would be in-game.
Unless you have just problem players, in which case, if that wasn't on the table they'd be doing something else.

I played a keep-stealth-after-attacking build in 4e. (Gnome shaman / rogue).

I wiped out half the enemies before I ran out of power and the rest of the party joined in to mop up.

It was fun for exactly one and a half combats. And disliked by everyone, including me, after 3. I made sure to tell everyone I would bring something new.

I then switched to one that could teleport the party massive distance let them all use their readied attacks, then teleport everyone away in the same turn. (Teleport 10' in the air, fall prone, stand up for free, shift when I stood up, when I shift I teleport 10' into the air..)
That one lasted 3 sessions.

 

[Minigiant]

I think it feels worse just on the face of it than it materially would be in-game.
Unless you have just problem players, in which case, if that wasn't on the table they'd be doing something else.

It's a terrible idea if monsters can do it.