Podcast #225: What We Would Change in Dragonlance

Ixal · Nov 7, 2022

whimsychris123 said:
There’s a lot of reasons that a woman might be called Goldmoon besides her hair color. I know that’s the reason stated in the book, but it need not be so. I think you could leave the essential parts of the characters intact while giving them more of an authentic indigenous portrayal.

Why?
1. Authentic for which indigenious people? They are not one monolithic group
2. Why does she need to authentically represent a real world group instead of being a fantasy character with loose inspirations? I don't see you or other people complaining that the Knights are not authentic (Hospitaler? Teutons? Templar? Same problem as Nr. 1 here). And whenever "too much" reality comes up like economic models one of the first responses is thats its fantasy with dragons so it does not need to mirror reality. So why shouldn't Goldmoon come from a fantasy culture?

whimsychris123 · Nov 7, 2022

Ixal said:
Why?
1. Authentic for which indigenious people? They are not one monolithic group
2. Why does she need to authentically represent a real world group instead of being a fantasy character with loose inspirations? I don't see you or other people complaining that the Knights are not authentic (Hospitaler? Teutons? Templar? Same problem as Nr. 1 here). And whenever "too much" reality comes up like economic models one of the first responses is thats its fantasy with dragons so it does not need to mirror reality. So why shouldn't Goldmoon come from a fantasy culture?

1. In the context of the conversation, I'm talking about Native American tribes, specifically of the midwestern plains.
2. The main issue is that the characters are white. All the characters in old Dragonlance are basically white. Why not make one based on indigenous people of North America a more authentic skin color? Why make them white unless you are coming from a white-centric point of view? As for everything being fantasy, therefore, authenticity isn't important: Fantasy tropes are coming from somewhere. Are they based on stereotypical "Western" points of view of native tribes, or something more true to the culture? That's what's being asked. Like I said, I don't think you have to change that much, but I would start with making them less white.

Ixal · Nov 7, 2022

whimsychris123 said:
1. In the context of the conversation, I'm talking about Native American tribes, specifically of the midwestern plains.
2. The main issue is that the characters are white. All the characters in old Dragonlance are basically white. Why not make one based on indigenous people of North America a more authentic skin color? Why make them white unless you are coming from a white-centric point of view? As for everything being fantasy, therefore, authenticity isn't important: Fantasy tropes are coming from somewhere. Are they based on stereotypical "Western" points of view of native tribes, or something more true to the culture? That's what's being asked. Like I said, I don't think you have to change that much, but I would start with making them less white.

And why is she being white a problem? Why does her style of clothing need to be skin colour locked?
When you are ok with PoC characters wearing "Europan culture" clothes in fantasy settings and belonging to European inspired cultures, and I assume you are, then its also ok for a white character to belong to a indigenous inspired culture.

And in game the area where Goldmoon comes from is close to Solace, so there is no reason for her being different than for example Tika (no colonial history as far as I am aware).

Morrus · Nov 7, 2022

Ixal said:
And why is she being white a problem? Why does her style of clothing need to be skin colour locked?
When you are ok with PoC characters wearing "Europan culture" clothes in fantasy settings and belonging to European inspired cultures, and I assume you are, then its also ok for a white character to belong to a indigenous inspired culture.

And in game the area where Goldmoon comes from is close to Solace, so there is no reason for her being different than for example Tika (no colonial history as far as I am aware).

That’s an easy one to answer.

It’s about representation and appropriation of a minority culture.

Now, you might be one of those people who think those things don’t matter (or even stronger beliefs). But I do find it a stretch to believe that in 2022 people on the internet are unaware that that is the issue under discussion.

Ixal · Nov 7, 2022

Morrus said:
That’s an easy one to answer.

It’s about representation and appropriation of a minority culture.

Now, you might be one of those people who think those things don’t matter (or even stronger beliefs). But I do find it a stretch to believe that in 2022 people on the internet are unaware that that is the issue under discussion.

Oh I am aware of it. I just do not agree with that some cultures being skin colour locked and deserve special treatment.
Either fantasy is free to reinvent their cultures, meaning white Native American inspired culture are equally valid as Asian victorian England inspired cultures, or fantasy has to be highly segregated with each culture must faithfully adhere to a real world culture with no room for creativity.
Not surprising, I prefer the former.
And no, I also do not believe in the common double standard that "white" cultures are up for grabs and no care has to be given to them while other cultures are not. The same rules apply to all of them.

Morrus · Nov 7, 2022

Ixal said:
Oh I am aware of it. I just do not agree with that some cultures being skin colour locked and deserve special treatment.
Either fantasy is free to reinvent their cultures, meaning white Native American inspired culture are equally valid as Asian victorian England inspired cultures, or fantasy has to be highly segregated with each culture must faithfully adhere to a real world culture with no room for creativity.
Not surprising, I prefer the former.
And no, I also do not believe in the common double standard that "white" cultures are up for grabs and no care has to be given to them while other cultures are not. The same rules apply to all of them.

Well there you go. And you know that others feel strongly otherwise. I don’t understand why you’re asking questions; you clearly understand the situation and which side of the issue you stand.

But I don’t think we’re going to turn this forum into a battleground for that same tired old argument yet again where people just repeat the same things over and over and sealion at each other, and as this exchange shows the thread has now reached that tedious and predictable stage, it’s time to close it.

Podcast #225: What We Would Change in Dragonlance

Darryl Mott

Ixal

Hero

whimsychris123

Adventurer

Ixal

Hero

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Ixal

Hero

Morrus

Well, that was fun

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