Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Time to be unpopular, I think...
However, are there going to be clues every time? No. Sometimes an altar just...well, looks like a dusty old altar. No dead bugs, no smell of rot, and the whole place probably has a faint icky aura to it left over from when it was in use long ago. Detect Magic will pull that there's more to the altar, Detect Evil might if the extra evil around the altar can be seen through the pervasive evil in the room, but beyond that the only options are:
1. explore the altar by trial and error (the more cautious you are the less likely you'll run aground on anything nasty)
2. ignore the altar and move on
If there's a hidden compartment in the altar and the PCs search for it that by no means should be a guarantee that they find it, no matter how long they take, even if their chances are reasonable on paper. (and whatever happened to the idea of "you get one roll, representing the best attempt you can make under these circumstances; another roll may not be attempted until something materially changes")
And there is always a very obvious cost or consequence of failure: they don't get such info or treasure or whatever is in the hidden compartment.
Lan-"and the next chapel down the hall might have an identical-looking altar that is in fact harmless"-efan
And here's the rub: there's nothing wrong with "gotcha", particularly if your players want to rush through things and-or their characters don't exercise at least a modicum of caution. If the players want to handwave the search they're putting their PCs' fates in my hands...rarely if ever a good idea.Also, frankly, is it such a bad thing if this approach leads players to be careful and intentional when describing their actions? I would consider that a point in favor of the approach. Provided, of course, that there is an understanding between the players and the DM that the intent is not to trick the players into bad situations, but to give the players’ choices meaning, and that the DM will accordingly give the players enough information to make informed decisions.
If I just say “there’s a spooky altar”, a player says “I search it for secret compartments” and I spring a curse on them because they didn’t say they weren’t touching it, or probe them with questions about how they search it to try to get them to say they touch it, then yeah, I’m being a “gotcha DM.”
Which is excellent.But that’s not what I do. I clearly describe all the dead bugs on the altar, the faint aura of negative energy, the smell of rot, to project that maybe this thing isn’t safe to touch. I don’t hide that information behind a perception check, because that information is essential for the players to make an informed decision about how to go about investingating it. If I give them that information and they decide to go up and feel the runes on it, the curse triggering isn’t some unavoidable trick of a malicious DM, it’s the world reacting to the players’ informed choices in an internally consistent way.
However, are there going to be clues every time? No. Sometimes an altar just...well, looks like a dusty old altar. No dead bugs, no smell of rot, and the whole place probably has a faint icky aura to it left over from when it was in use long ago. Detect Magic will pull that there's more to the altar, Detect Evil might if the extra evil around the altar can be seen through the pervasive evil in the room, but beyond that the only options are:
1. explore the altar by trial and error (the more cautious you are the less likely you'll run aground on anything nasty)
2. ignore the altar and move on
Now this is something that bugs me.As for where character skill enters the equation, it’s when the players make a decision that has an uncertain outcome. Maybe they describe prodding at the altar with a 10-Foot pole, or giving it a thorough visual examination without drawing any nearer, or they decide to try to translate the runes on it. These are things that might prompt a roll, because they have reasonable chances of succeeding and failing to find the hidden compartment. Of course, there would need to be some kind of time pressure as well, otherwise there’s no cost or consequence for failure. For me, this often comes in the form of random encounters, but there are lots of ways to create costs and consequences. If there isn’t a cost or consequence, the search succeeds without a roll.
If there's a hidden compartment in the altar and the PCs search for it that by no means should be a guarantee that they find it, no matter how long they take, even if their chances are reasonable on paper. (and whatever happened to the idea of "you get one roll, representing the best attempt you can make under these circumstances; another roll may not be attempted until something materially changes")
And there is always a very obvious cost or consequence of failure: they don't get such info or treasure or whatever is in the hidden compartment.
Lan-"and the next chapel down the hall might have an identical-looking altar that is in fact harmless"-efan