Pineapple Express: Someone Is Wrong on the Internet?

[Umbran]

I think there's some room to expand the term in areas that the original usage didn't explicitly address, but which still fit the overall idea.

Sure. And it certainly isn't only a fanfic thing - Diane Carey's 1986 Trek novel Dreadnought! has a main character (Cadet Piper, who manages to almost out-Kirk the Kobyashi Maru in the first scene of the book) that's pretty commonly seen as a Mary Sue.

(and honestly, I think an alternative term for male characters is redundant)

I noted "Marty Stu" largely to make it clear that Smith and Ferraro had already in the 1970s realized that similar issues cross gender bounds. Indeed, in initial drafts of the short story, Mary Sue had what would be traditionally considered a masculine name (they had considered Murray Sue and Marty Sue, for example).

Part of the reason to have a different word (at the time) was to highlight the fact that criticism at the time generally allowed and approved of male characters with inexplicable potency but insufficient characterization.

 

[Deset Gled]

Eh ... I think that the term is so inherently gendered that it's difficult to do.

It's similar to saying, "Look, you can call any guy a 'Karen,' so what's the big deal?"


eta- apologies to people actually named Karen.

Intentionally fighting the idea of "inherently gendered" is exactly the name of the game.

At any rate, the gender of a name is completely fluid. Taylor, Lindsey, Kimberly, Tracy, Clair, Madison, Ashley. Boy names? Girl names? Doesn't matter. Just add Karen and Mary to that list.

Or, to try my hand at this quote game:

"We choose to do these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."
- Marilyn Monroe, probably.

 

[payn]

I'll readily admit, I miss when it was, "BBQ bureaucrat Betty", "Parking permit Patty" or "Pool patrol Paula". So, adding additional names and phrases bothers me not at all.

 

[Autumnal]

I take correction on the history of Mary Sue, with thanks to all involved. Also interested to compare it with K.W. Jeter’s coinage of steampunk as a mocking label that others got serious about.

 

[Staffan]

I would totally slash Mary Sue and Nurse Chapel, right after Kirk and, um, Kirk.

 

[TwoSix]

At any rate, the gender of a name is completely fluid. Taylor, Lindsey, Kimberly, Tracy, Clair, Madison, Ashley. Boy names? Girl names? Doesn't matter. Just add Karen and Mary to that list.

To be fair, the gender of names isn't completely fluid. The strong trend (at least in English speaking countries, which is what I'm familiar with), is that "boy names" will slowly becomes "unisex names", and unisex names will then become "girl names".

The more a name becomes associated to idea of being "feminine", the less likely it is to be used to name a male child, without a fairly strong cultural counterweight.

 

[Ryujin]

I would totally slash Mary Sue and Nurse Chapel, right after Kirk and, um, Kirk.

Kirk and Kirk would never work. He'd figure that he could do better.

 

[Ryujin]

Well, then we should be more clear about the original:

"Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship."
-Smith and Ferraro, who coined the term, in 1976

The original was a parody, after all. It wasn't particularly positive in its connotation.

And, in later interviews, Smith has mentioned that James Bond and Superman can be considered "Marty Stu" characters (a term coined by the same women, btw), whose characterization is generally secondary to their being potent. Indeed, Kirk himself is kind of a Marty Stu, when you get down to it...

Later uses by others, then, aren't significantly different in meaning. What's different is the intent and mode of use - today men will apply the term in a knee-jerk fashion to denigrate any capable female character, without the honest analysis to determine if she lacks appropriate characterization or flaws to escape being a member of the trope.

So, it is still a hammer - currently folks just hit things that aren't nails with it.

I think there's also a presumption that the author is inserting themselves into the story via the character, for it to qualify as Mary Sue/Marty Stu.

I think Kirk, while hyper competent in most things, dodges being a Marty Stu by virtue of being shown to be fallible and obsessive in some episodes.

 

[Umbran]

I think there's also a presumption that the author is inserting themselves into the story via the character, for it to qualify as Mary Sue/Marty Stu.

I think that's common, but not a requirement.

I think Kirk, while hyper competent in most things, dodges being a Marty Stu by virtue of being shown to be fallible and obsessive in some episodes.

Kirk has the benefit of not being written by a single person, episodically, and in the 1960s, under somewhat more tolerance for inconsistent characterization.

Each can make up their own mind if those fallibilities are sufficient to have him escape the trope.

 

[Autumnal]