Pineapple Express: Someone Is Wrong on the Internet?

[Deset Gled]

I completely agree with this as a matter of history.

That said, the appropriation of a term in mass culture can often be different when other groups get ahold of it. I don't want to get into the third rail of enworld, so I will just say that, for example, the "w" word that is so prevalent was originally used in a specific and culturally-positive context before it was appropriated by others.

I hope I'm not being insensitive here, but I need a bit more context to know what the "w" word is. I can think of more than one that would be inappropriate for ENWorld, but none I know exclusively as "the" w word.

 

[Alzrius]

I hope I'm not being insensitive here, but I need a bit more context to know what the "w" word is. I can think of more than one that would be inappropriate for ENWorld, but none I know exclusively as "the" w word.

I'll go ahead and bite the bullet on this one:

Woke.

 

[Umbran]

I completely agree with this as a matter of history.

That said, the appropriation of a term in mass culture can often be different when other groups get ahold of it.

Well, then we should be more clear about the original:

"Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship."
-Smith and Ferraro, who coined the term, in 1976

The original was a parody, after all. It wasn't particularly positive in its connotation.

And, in later interviews, Smith has mentioned that James Bond and Superman can be considered "Marty Stu" characters (a term coined by the same women, btw), whose characterization is generally secondary to their being potent. Indeed, Kirk himself is kind of a Marty Stu, when you get down to it...

Later uses by others, then, aren't significantly different in meaning. What's different is the intent and mode of use - today men will apply the term in a knee-jerk fashion to denigrate any capable female character, without the honest analysis to determine if she lacks appropriate characterization or flaws to escape being a member of the trope.

So, it is still a hammer - currently folks just hit things that aren't nails with it.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So, it is still a hammer - currently folks just hit things that aren't nails with it.

Not really disagreeing with anything you wrote!

Well, except one thing. James TIBERIUS Kirk is not a Marty Stu.

James TIBERIUS Kirk is just an everyman, trying his best to keep his shirt intact while he fights off aliens.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Also?

Four hundred years of progress, exploration of space, and the demise of capitalism... and replicators can't even make a decent shirt.
-Abraham Lincoln.

 

[Alzrius]

without the honest analysis to determine if she lacks appropriate characterization or flaws to escape being a member of the trope.

I think there's some room to expand the term in areas that the original usage didn't explicitly address, but which still fit the overall idea. I've seen plenty of people claim that certain characters aren't a Mary Sue (and honestly, I think an alternative term for male characters is redundant) because they have a flaw...where the flaw in question is either functionally meaningless (i.e. not actually a flaw at all), or is actually a virtue with a paper-thin negative presentation (e.g. their principle flaw is something like "can't stand red-tape," or "unable to countenance injustice even when it hurts their career," etc).

 

[Deset Gled]

Mary Sue (and honestly, I think an alternative term for male characters is redundant)

Thanks for noting that. It's one of my pet peeves/slacktivisms.

There is literally (literally) no need for any of this "Marty Stu" or "Kevin" nonsense. If "mankind" can include females, Mary Sues and Karens can by males. Just use the original word, regardless of gender.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Thanks for noting that. It's one of my pet peeves/slacktivisms.

There is literally (literally) no need for any of this "Marty Stu" or "Kevin" nonsense. If "mankind" can include females, Mary Sues and Karens can by males. Just use the original word, regardless of gender.

Eh ... I think that the term is so inherently gendered that it's difficult to do.

It's similar to saying, "Look, you can call any guy a 'Karen,' so what's the big deal?"


eta- apologies to people actually named Karen.

 

[payn]

eta- apologies to people actually named Karen.

Im up to 5 or 6 co-workers that say, "its car-en" at this point.

 

[payn]