D&D (2024) Not a fan of the new Eldritch Knight

[ECMO3]

That was the theory.

Depends if you're talking about nova, white room or a real campaign.

2024 I'm not convinced but I'll get back to you.

I have played all of those classes (2014) in 1-20 campaigns. Fighters are not the king of melee in play.

I will note I played capable Melee Bards and Warlocks to 20th level, but I have not played a melee-optimized Bard or Warlock to 20th level. But I am pretty confident I could and still be very good at the social pillar.

I have played Bladesingers optimized for melee and IME they are in a class of their own when it comes to melee in tier 2+ (but still less powerful than a traditional Wizard that is going to cast things like Wish, Simulacrum and Forcecage).

 

[Oofta]

I'm just imagining the paladin listening to this conversation, sitting in the back row with their hand raised.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm just imagining the paladin listening to this conversation, sitting in the back row with their hand raised.

I did not play a lot of Paladins in 2014. I played a few and saw a lot in other players or as a DM.

The 2024 rules really encourage a Paladin 1-level dip though, so I might be doing a lot of them for one level going forward.

A Charisma Gish gets Divine Smite and Wrathful Smite without giving up a caster level.

A Charisma caster gets medium armor (heavy if you start Paladin) and weapon masteries that work with truestrike without giving up a caster level.

A Fighter or Barbarian with a 13 Charisma gets 2 more weapon masteries and some limited utility spells.

I am actually starting a new Character that is going to be a Warlock-Rogue with a 1-level Paladin dip

Right now she is Rogue-1/Paladin-1, her next 2 levels are going to be Warlock for Pact of Chain, Truestrike-Agonizing Blast (trading out Magic Initiate) and Green Flame Blade-Agonizing Blast, then Rogue 4 (Arcane Trickster), then Warlock 5 (GOO) and then the rest of her levels in Rogue. Similar to the discussion here she will be an Arcane Trickster with a dumped Intelligence.

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[Scribe]

Well they do, through feats, even without taking a 1-level Figther dip.

Moreover though they don't need it. They have melee-oriented spells, which are better than those things.

Edit: Example - Defense Fighting Style gives you a +1 to AC. Shield spell gives you a +5 for a round, Mirror Image gives you a bunch of duplicates with your AC and Protection from Good and Evil gives a lot of enemies disadvantage.

Those are 1st and 2nd level spells!

So, has Wizards changed the assumptions around the adventuring day? Are these Cha Casters 'better Fighters' while retaining their utility throughout the day? Short Rest? Long Rest?

I'm assuming only 5.5 material btw, there is 0 chance Wizards has balanced the new edition against the totality of 5e content.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Overall I am pretty happy with the 2024 subclasses, but EK is an exception to this. I hate it.

Eldritch Knight was my favorite fighter subclass by far and it was the fighter I played the most with 2014 rules. Usually I dumped Intelligence, maxed Charisma and multiclassed with a Bard, Sorcerer or Warlock, usually with a 1-4 level dip in one of those.

When played that way in 2014 the class was awesome, Warmagic was not as effective as the Bladesinger extra attack but it was pretty darn fun. On the new EK, Warmagic gets a slight improvement and then a big nerf. It works with the attack action, not requiring an extra action, but it also only works with your Wizard spells. This means Eldritch Blast is not even usable with it and it means if you want to use it in combat you really need to have a good Intelligence, when most fighters dump intelligence.

I have been trying to put together a good EK build and I can't figure one that is going to work for me. I am having trouble figuring why I would ever play an Eldritch Knight when a Valor Bard is available.

Do the rules prohibit you from staying with 2014 options? I genuinely thought they did not.

I like leadership and persuasion so I thought about 2014 EK with magic initiate and shadow touched or? Maybe even get touched. You can have all three wit variant human at 6th.

Take more attacking spells with the feats and have a higher charisma.

Why convert to 2024 version if you don’t like it?

 

[ECMO3]

So, has Wizards changed the assumptions around the adventuring day? Are these Cha Casters 'better Fighters' while retaining their utility throughout the day? Short Rest? Long Rest?

Yes. A melee optimized Bladesinger is way better, the gap widens as level increases and the new spells are better for this than the 2014 spells.

False Life and Contigency-false life are extremely effective with full caster spell slots and these erase the built in advantage the fighter has in hit points and healing. Add in spells that work in melee and they will dominate.

If you are limiting to 2024 subclasses, I think a Valor Bard and a POB Warlock are going to be at least as good as a Fighter in melee at most levels if they are optimized for melee including spells selected and used in melee while also being good at the utility and the social pillars.

 

[Scribe]

If you are limiting to 2024 content, I think a Valor Bard and a POB Warlock are going to be as good as a Fighter in melee at most levels if they are optimized for melee including spells selected and used in melee.

While retaining their caster utility, or do they have to go all in on being melee casters.

 

[ECMO3]

Do the rules prohibit you from staying with 2014 options? I genuinely thought they did not.

I like leadership and persuasion so I thought about 2014 EK with magic initiate and shadow touched or? Maybe even get touched. You can have all three wit variant human at 6th.

Take more attacking spells with the feats and have a higher charisma.

Why convert to 2024 version if you don’t like it?

The General consensus is anything in the new rules replaces the old version.

So the 2014 EK is replaced by the 2024 EK, but the 2014 Rune Knight is still available.

 

[ECMO3]

While retaining their caster utility, or do they have to go all in on being melee casters.

Not in combat if optimized for melee. Out of combat yes, due to better Charisma (except Bladesinger) and ritual spells.

 

[Scribe]

Not in combat if optimized for melee. Out of combat yes, due to better Charisma (except Bladesinger) and ritual spells.

So they are better or on par in melee, have their out of combat ritual utility, and obviously will perform likely better in social pillar due to Cha stat, though Fighters did get a few bones thrown to them in the new edition in this regard.

I mean mostly I'm fine with this, even with my view on Wizards, I doubt they would miss the mark on balance to a massive degree in the new edition content.