Modifying Under Performing SRD Monsters, or "Building A Better Otyugh"

[Cleon]

The deinonychus in the SRD has a +8 racial bonus to Listen checks.

Yes, and the Megaraptor too. I fear I may be arguing about that when we get on to do the other dinosaurs.

Oh well, I can see you're firm on this point so I'll stop naysaying it. I can always just tweak the stats the way I like them if I run an encounter with a T rex.

What about my remaining niggle that a realistic Tyrannosaurus shouldn't advance to Gargantuan? Would you like us to argue debate about that, or shall we start figuring out my Primal Tyrannosaurus?

 

[demiurge1138]

You're right. Realistically, a T. rex is on the large side of Huge, and wouldn't advance to Gargantuan, because of their allometry curves. But I don't see why you're so insistant on a sharp divide on realism. Look at all of the other dire animals. They advance to a size category larger. If you can get Gargantuan dire tigers, I think there's room for Gargantuan T. rexes

 

[Cleon]

You're right. Realistically, a T. rex is on the large side of Huge, and wouldn't advance to Gargantuan, because of their allometry curves. But I don't see why you're so insistant on a sharp divide on realism. Look at all of the other dire animals. They advance to a size category larger. If you can get Gargantuan dire tigers, I think there's room for Gargantuan T. rexes

Well I'm guessing it's partly different strokes for different folks and partly talking at cross purposes. Going by your frequent references to recent scientific studies I was assuming we're after a fairly "realistic" version of a Tyrannosaurus here, and we seem to have ended up arguing were the realism divide ends up. For example, I don't mind the SRD version of the Tyrannosaurus " It is slightly more than 30 feet long from nose to tail", since I assume the stats are for a base animal at the small end of the adult scale, like a young adult, while you prefer a 40' individual which may be just slightly over the average (although there aren't really enough adult specimens to be very sure about that). I also like starting out at the small scale because it makes it easy to use the stats for the slightly smaller Tyrannosaurs, like Albertosaurus.

Still, this is mostly a matter of taste, so I'll probably just tweak the stats to fit my biases if I ever have a party run into the big scaly one.

As for the dire tigers, I'm thinking the SRD tiger makes a better comparison. A dire tiger is a creature with no real-world counterpart, but the tiger is just a regular tiger but, nevertheless it advances to a Huge 18 HD monster! Now I'm fine with the idea of a tiger in the same size category as an elephant in a fantasy game, but I don't much care for the way 3E conflates them with "normal" animals which don't show so much real-life variation in size. I prefer to think of such extra-size category creatures as belonging to fictional 'giant' species, or breeds/individuals that have been enhanced somehow. The latter could be represented by adding an appropriate template, somehow an elephant-sized tiger is far more acceptable to me if it is draconic, fey-touched or fiendish.

Speaking of real-life animals that are spread across more than one size category, in poor conditions an adult may be under 10' long and 150 kilos or so (Medium in D&D terms), but the largest specimens can reach 20+ feet and 2000+ pounds (Large).

Ironically, the SRD appears to have fluffed this up - the regular crocodile is Medium, but does not advance to Large, while the giant crocodile is Huge, but its stats are only about one size category advanced over a standard crocs (Str 19 versus 27, for example).

So, if I get around to it I'll add the crocodile to the list of SRD monsters that need tweaking. There's definitely a place for a Huge crocodile in 3ED&D, and there were, of course, once living crocodilians of such size in prehistoric times, such as Deinosuchus or Sarcosuchus, but the current giant crocodile is a poor representation of such, and I think Huge is too big to be a very large nile or salt-water crocodile.

That, and they forgot to give the poor things a Death Roll attack.

Anyhows, I think we're about down haggling over the standard Tyrannosaurus, so I'll start on my Primal Rex. At least I won't have to worry about realism as far as that monster's concerned, because it's not what I'm aiming for.

 

[Cleon]

Building a Better Tyrannosaurus

So, I'll get started on the Primal Tyrannosaurus.

Now, what I'm looking for here is a Tyrannosaurus-like monster inspired by all the exaggerated fictional representations of Terrible Lizards of the carnivorous variety, examples of which can be seen in Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World, many Edgar Rice Burroughs tales, the theropod in the original King Kong or even Toho's Gorosaurus.

I'll post the SRD Tyrannosaurus stats in my next post, and modify them as we decide on changes.

So, just to lay out some guidelines, I'm thinking of a monster starting out around CR12, so it will probably need some kind of exceptional toughness and defences to last long enough to be a worthy foe, and as fair arsenal of nasty special attacks just to stop the evil DMs amongst us from getting bored.

Starting with the basics: Size, type, hit dice & attributes.

Might as well start it out Huge (say 40' long and 24' tall, weighing 10 tons, with the outdated tail-dragging 'reptilian kangaroo' stance). I'll probably have it advance up to Colossal, so we can have kaiju-scale versions.

I like demiurges proposal to make it a magical beast, since that offers an excuse to give it some of the more unlikely powers.

Hit dice might as well start at 18. It's traditional, don't you know.

As for attributes, I'm thinking Str 39, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 10.

• Strength 39 - It's bigger & heavier than the SRD Tyrannosaurus, so needs a Str boost. (Besides which, I think the SRD version is a little underpowered).
• Constitution 26 - I'm thinking this animal primeval terror has an unnaturally tenacity to life, so a higher Con seems to be in order.
• Intelligence 1 - However, in pulp fiction carnivorous dinosaurs are stupid brutes, with crude reptilian brains that operate almost entirely on instinct. I don't want to make them mindless, so that only leaves Int 1, the same as the SRD crocodile or lizard.

 

[Cleon]

The Primal Tyrannosaurus

PRIMAL TYRANNOSAURUS
Huge Animal
[Huge Magical Beast?]
Hit Dice: 18d8+99 (180 hp)
[Hit Dice: 18d10+144 (243 hp) from removing toughnesses, adding Beast & upping Con]
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural) touch 9, flat-footed 13
[Armor Class: 21 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +12 natural) touch 9, flat-footed 20]
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+30
[Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+40 from adding Beast & upping Str]
Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13)
[Attack: Bite +30 melee (4d6+14/19-20 plus toxic jaws) or kick +30 melee (3d6+14) or tail-slap +25 melee (2d8+21)]
Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13)
[Full Attack: Bite +31 melee (4d6+14/19-20 plus toxic jaws) and kick +25 melee (3d6+7) or Bite +31 melee (4d6+14/19-20 plus toxic jaws) and tail-slap +25 melee (2d8+21)]
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
[Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. (30 ft. with tail)][FONT=&quot]
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
[Special Attacks: Lashing tail (sweep 2d6+14), leaping talons (2×3d6+14), pounce, seize prey, swallow whole, terrifying roar, toxic jaws (?), worry (8d6+28?)]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
[Special Qualities: Enhanced scent, ignore death, low-light vision, primal magic resistance]
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +8
[Saves: Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +10 or Dire Animal type good Will save for +15?]
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
[Abilities: Str 39, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 10?]
Skills: Hide –2, Listen +14, Spot +14
[Skills: Hide +1, Jump +30, Listen +9, Spot +12, Survival +10 [+14 when tracking by scent]]
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Toughness (3), Track
[Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)]
Environment: Warm plains
[Environment: Warm forest? Any warm land?]
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
[Aim for CR ~12-13]
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 19–36 HD (Huge); 37–54 HD (Gargantuan)
[Goes up to Colossal, maybe 18-24 (Huge}; 25-48 (Gargantuan); 49-96 (Colossal)?]
Level Adjustment: —

Despite its enormous size and 6-ton weight, a primal tyrannosaurus is a swift runner. Its head is nearly 6 feet long, and its teeth are from 3 to 6 inches in length. It is slightly more than 30 feet long from nose to tail.
[Despite its enormous size and 25000 pound weight, a primal tyrannosaurus is surprisingly swift and agile. An average primal tyrannosaurus is almost 50 feet long from nose to tail, towering 25 feet in height. Its jaws are nearly 6 feet long, with teeth like razor-sharp steak-knives up to 6 inches in length.]

Combat
A primal tyrannosaurus pursues and eats just about anything it sees. Its tactics are simple—charge in and bite.

[Enhanced Scent (Ex): This functions like the scent special quality (q.v.), except that it has double the range of regular scent (60 ft. normally, 120 ft. upwind and 30 ft. downwind), and the primal tyrannosaurus has a +4 racial bonus on scent checks, which stacks with its racial bonus to Survival for purposes of tracking.]

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a primal tyrannosaurus must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.
[replaced by Seize Prey - see below

Lashing Tail (Ex): A primal tyrannosaurus's tail has double the reach of a creature of its size. Its tail attack rolls are always penalized as if they were secondary attacks, even if it is the only attack they make in a round. The tyrannosaurus can make tail-slap attacks which apply 1½ times its damage bonus from strength or make a tail sweep attack as a standard action.

The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (40 feet for a Gargantuan tyrannosaurus, 60 feet Colossal one), extending from an intersection on the edge of the tyrannosaurus's space in any direction. The tail-sweep automatically inflicts 2d6+14 damage to all creatures within the affected area that are two or more sizes smaller than the tyrannosaurus, halved if they make a DC 27 Reflex save.

The save DC is Constitution-based.

Leaping Talons (Ex): As a full round action, a primal tyrannosaurus can jump to make two kick attacks, each kick is a +30 melee attack doing 3d6+14 damage. It can take 10 on its jump check, so an average primal tyrannosaurus can leap 40 feet horizontally, and can move up to a double move before attacking.

A primal tyrannosaurus can attack two separate targets with Leaping Talons if they are both within a space no wider than the tyrannosaurus's reach. If the tyrannosaurus uses both of its Leaping Talons' kick attacks against a creature two or more size categories smaller than itself it rolls for each attack but can only use the best result, since it can not strike such a lesser foe simultaneously with both feet..

Pounce (Ex): If a primal tyrannosaurus charges a foe, it can make a kick and a bite attack, including a Swallow Whole attempt if it succeeds in Seize Prey with the bite.

Seize Prey (Ex): The primal tyrannosaurus can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a kick or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the tyrannosaurus gets a hold on a creature two or more sizes smaller, on subsequent rounds it can opt to either make a Worry attack against the creature, squeeze the creature for automatic bite or kick damage, or make a Swallow Whole attack against a creature held in its jaws.

A primal tyrannosaurus can seize two such lesser prey simultaneously, one in its jaws and one under a foot. The tyrannosaurus is not considered flat-footed while seizing lesser prey and can attack into its threatened squares normally, including Attacks of Opportunity, although it has a -20 penalty on its grapple checks against its seized prey during rounds it attacks other foes and cannot make opportunity attacks with a natural weapon while it uses it to seize prey (i.e. it can only bite the opponent held in its jaws, not other foes).

The primal tyrannosaurus can move normally with a lesser victim held in its jaws. If it has a lesser prey seized in a foot it must make a grapple check as if moving with a pinned opponent, which counts as a Move action for the tyrannosaurus instead of a standard action as per the basic grapple rules.

The tyrannosaurus can drop a creature it has seized as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 × 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet travelled.]

Swallow Whole (Ex): A primal tyrannosaurus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the primal tyrannosaurus’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Huge primal tyrannosaurus’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
[Modified as follows:

Swallow Whole (Ex): A primal tyrannosaurus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+14 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the tyrannosaurus’s gizzard. If a swallowed creature can use a light slashing or piercing weapon to attack the gizzard (AC 16), if they deal 25 points of damage the tyrannosaurus will spit them out. Only the creature that inflicted the damage exits; another swallowed opponent must force its own way out.

A Huge tyrannosaurus’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

Toxic Jaws (Ex): A primal tyrannosaurus's fangs are swimming in toxic bacteria and stained with the deliquescing remains of its victims. Any creature bitten by the tyrannosaurus must make a DC 27 Fortitude save or contract the disease festering death.

Festering death—bite, Fortitude DC 27, incubation period 1d3 days; damage 1d6 Str and 1d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Worry (Ex): A primal tyrannosaurus can inflict 8d6+28 damage by making a successful grapple check against a held opponent, tearing at its victim with its jaws and foreclaws. It can make a worry attack instead of a regular melee bite attack.]

Skills: A primal tyrannosaurus has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
[A primal tyrannosaurus has a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks, a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Spot and Survival checks and a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.][/FONT]

 

[demiurge1138]

The primal T. rex shouldn't be a swift runner, certainly. More of a slow plodding beast, but ferociously strong.

 

[Cleon]

The primal T. rex shouldn't be a swift runner, certainly. More of a slow plodding beast, but ferociously strong.

Well, as mentioned before in a lot of fiction & films a pulp-style carnivorous dinosaur moves with horrible speed and vitality, so I'm not completely sure about the plodding-ness.

I can think of some stories & films where the Awesomely Big Carnosaur pursues some humans who are just able to keep ahead of it long enough to reach safety (a cave, climbing a tree etc), and others where its fast enough to catch the bad guy or disposable natives to show how nasty it is, so I'm thinking it should be a bit faster than an average human, but not that much faster.

Obviously there's some variation, in The Valley of Gwangi the titular theropod could run fast enough to pluck a man from the back of a galloping horse, and in others the pursued party may be faster than an average human - a Conan or Tarzan type, who probably has Speed 40 ft.

So, how about leave the Primal Rex its Speed 40 ft., but swap its Run feat for something else? That way it would run 160' per round (4 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]40), ten feet faster than a regular human with Run (5 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]30=140')?

EDIT: Are you alright with the type, ability scores & advancement?

 

[demiurge1138]

Fair enough--Harryhausen carnosaurs are pretty speedy. I was thinking more tail-dragging lumbering behemoths like in The Lost World.

 

[freyar]

Not that you're really asking me , but I like most of it except that I prefer Animal to Magical Beast.

 

[Cleon]

Not that you're really asking me , but I like most of it except that I prefer Animal to Magical Beast.

Well I like to give you the illusion of participation.

Animal was my first choice to, but I've thought up a couple of powers that felt too unbelievable for a normal animal. (E.g. the Lost World / ERB carnosaur's habit of fighting for several minutes after it had been killed, since it was "too stupid to know it was dead".)

Also, I'd like to give it some defences against magic to prevent 'easy kills'. It will have a low Will save, so I don't want the party casually neutralizing it with a charm, polymorph or petrification effect. That's a common problem with some of the high CR brawler type monsters.

I'm planning to leave that discussion until after finishing with the basic stats, though.

EDIT: It will have a low Will save unless we do something like the SRD Animal Type's "(certain animals have different good saves, for instance dire animals have good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves)."

Hmm... it's tempting. I'm going to slap a lot of abilities on this horror, so maybe some kind of "Savage Will" giving it good Will saves is appropriate, since its mind is so tiny, powerfully willed and driven by primal instincts.