Jump while withdrawing?

[Hypersmurf]

A square of terrain that slows movement is still a square that slows movement, even if you jump over it. It might not slow movement for you at the point in time that you jump, but it is still a square that slows movement. Minimally, it forces you to jump in order to not double the move distance through it. You cannot just move through it normally.

"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that slows movement, you can’t charge."

So would you forbid a Druid-2 from charging through a square with heavy undergrowth? It's a square that slows movement... it just doesn't slow it for the druid.

Would you forbid a flying creature from charging if the line of the charge passed through a square with a slippery floor? It's a square that slows movement... for someone who isn't flying...

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

So would you forbid a Druid-2 from charging through a square with heavy undergrowth? It's a square that slows movement... it just doesn't slow it for the druid.

Would you forbid a flying creature from charging if the line of the charge passed through a square with a slippery floor? It's a square that slows movement... for someone who isn't flying...

I would not forbid either of these because they can still move in a straight line to the target. A jumping character is moving straight on the grid, but not straight up and down.

Any form of movement can allow a charge as long as the attacking creature moves directly to the target and no other charging (or other game) rule is violated.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would not forbid either of these because they can still move in a straight line to the target. A jumping character is moving straight on the grid, but not straight up and down.

Unless he jumps higher than five feet, though, he's remaining in the same five foot cube... so his movement could still be considered to be a straight line in 3 dimensions.

If we track the centre of mass of someone walking, it doesn't travel in a dead straight line. There is side-to-side motion, and up-and-down motion. But as long as their path remains within a given tolerance, we can consider them to be moving in a straight line.

In a two-dimensional sense, the grid handles this tolerance in the form of 5-foot squares. As long as the five-foot squares travelled through represent a straight line, we can say that the character is travelling in a straight line (in a two-dimensional sense).

All of these paths, for example, represent a straight line, which passes through both A and B:

1
[color=green]A......[/color].
.......[color=green]B[/color]

2
[color=green]A.....[/color]..
......[color=green].B[/color]

3
[color=green]A....[/color]...
.....[color=green]..B[/color]

4
[color=green]A...[/color]....
....[color=green]...B[/color]

5
[color=green]A..[/color].....
...[color=green]....B[/color]

6
[color=green]A.[/color]......
..[color=green].....B[/color]

7
[color=green]A[/color].......
.[color=green]......B[/color]

A character who takes any of those paths is travelling a straight line from A to B (in the two-dimensional sense).

So, if we generalise the 5 foot squares to 5 foot cubes, then isn't any path whose 5 foot cubes represent a straight line similarly indicative of a character travelling in a straight line (in a three-dimensional sense)? If the jump is not of sufficient amplitude to make the path of 5 foot cubes curved, then isn't the path of travel straight as well?

If not, then the simple motion of hips and pelvis should be sufficient to disqualify someone from 'straight line' travel.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

A character who takes any of those paths is travelling a straight line from A to B (in the two-dimensional sense).

Straight, but not direct.

So, if we generalise the 5 foot squares to 5 foot cubes, then isn't any path whose 5 foot cubes represent a straight line similarly indicative of a character travelling in a straight line (in a three-dimensional sense)? If the jump is not of sufficient amplitude to make the path of 5 foot cubes curved, then isn't the path of travel straight as well?

Sure, you can adjudicate it as such.

But, you cannot have it both ways. If a character is jumping through a 5 foot cube while staying in it, the character is STILL moving through the difficult terrain. If he jumps out of the 5 foot cube, he is not traveling in a straight (or direct) path.

Btw, a character jumps 10 feet across and 2.5 feet up, is he in the 5 foot cube below, or the 5 foot cube above him, or both?

If not, then the simple motion of hips and pelvis should be sufficient to disqualify someone from 'straight line' travel.

We are not discussing movement of hips and pelvis.

We are discussing either a directional change in movement specified by the jump rules, or no directional change whereby the character still moves through the difficult terrain square.

Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. (Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.) You can’t run or charge across difficult terrain.

If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.

Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.

It explicitly states that flying creatures are not hampered. It also states that you cannot run or charge across "difficult terrain squares".

Where does the Jump skill specify that it ignores the cannot charge through a difficult terrain square?


Jumping does not even state that you acquire enough height to avoid the difficult terrain. But, this is an assumption that the counter position is making.

Long Jump: A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance.

So sure, you gain an altitude of 1.25 feet at the midpoint of a 5 foot jump, but that does not necessarily mean the character is high enough to avoid the difficult terrain at either edge (or even somewhere in between). In fact, it does not mean that the character acquires enough height to avoid the difficult terrain even at the midpoint.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Charge forces you to move directly towards your opponent with no deviation. Long jumps force you to attain a vertical height. If you are attaining a vertical height, you are not moving directly toward your opponent. Deviating vertically is no different than deviating horizontally.

Sorry, but I think that's just a ridiculous argument, unworthy of any further discussion.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorry, but I think that's just a ridiculous argument, unworthy of any further discussion.

Maybe you should read what I wrote in my last post instead.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Straight, but not direct.

How so? It starts in square A, it travels a straight line, it ends in square B... how can the path not be direct?

But, you cannot have it both ways. If a character is jumping through a 5 foot cube while staying in it, the character is STILL moving through the difficult terrain.

That depends on why the terrain is difficult.

If it's an Entangle spell? Sure, jumping won't help. If it's an icy patch on the ground? You can occupy the cube without being affected by the ice, if you aren't touching the ground...

Btw, a character jumps 10 feet across and 2.5 feet up, is he in the 5 foot cube below, or the 5 foot cube above him, or both?

Well, the average human will already have his head in the upper cube even when walking normally, won't he?

We are not discussing movement of hips and pelvis.

We are discussing either a directional change in movement specified by the jump rules, or no directional change whereby the character still moves through the difficult terrain square.

It's not a directional change that the Jump rules specify; it's a positional change.

Where does the Jump skill specify that it ignores the cannot charge through a difficult terrain square?

If jumping means that the square does not hamper your movement, then the rule about passing through squares that hamper your movement is irrelevant.

Jumping does not even state that you acquire enough height to avoid the difficult terrain. But, this is an assumption that the counter position is making.

Certainly. Which is why knowing the nature of the terrain in a specific example is important.

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I see Jump, Balance, Tumble and even Climb & Swim as skills that generically allow the character to bypass terrain or move through terrain in a different manner. It is an easier DC when you explicitly spend a Move Action or Standard Action, but these can be part of other movement with circumstance modifiers.

Yes, I would evewn allow Climb as part of a Charge, but the circumstance modifier would be too high to be a practical tactic for most creatures that lack an inherent racial Climb speed.

Do we really want to interpret skills such that they are always intrisically inferior to magic for even that narrow realm for which they are supposed to cover? Do we need to prevent characters from jumping over potholes as part of a Withdraw or Charge?

This is a game. Let the character use their skills.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

(double post)

 

[KarinsDad]

That depends on why the terrain is difficult.

If it's an Entangle spell? Sure, jumping won't help. If it's an icy patch on the ground? You can occupy the cube without being affected by the ice, if you aren't touching the ground...

This is a slippery slope argument.

FLOORS
As with walls, dungeon floors come in many types.

Flagstone: Like masonry walls, flagstone floors are made of fitted stones. They are usually cracked and only somewhat level. Slime and mold grows in these cracks. Sometimes water runs in rivulets between the stones or sits in stagnant puddles. Flagstone is the most common dungeon floor.

Uneven Flagstone: Over time, some floors can become so uneven that a DC 10 Balance check is required to run or charge across the surface. Failure means the character can’t move in this round. Floors as treacherous as this should be the exception, not the rule.

Hewn Stone Floors: Rough and uneven, hewn floors are usually covered with loose stones, gravel, dirt, or other debris. A DC 10 Balance check is required to run or charge across such a floor. Failure means the character can still act, but can’t run or charge in this round.

Light Rubble: Small chunks of debris litter the ground. Light rubble adds 2 to the DC of Balance and Tumble checks.

Dense Rubble: The ground is covered with debris of all sizes. It costs 2 squares of movement to enter a square with dense rubble. Dense rubble adds 5 to the DC of Balance and Tumble checks, and it adds 2 to the DC of Move Silently checks.

Smooth Stone Floors: Finished and sometimes even polished, smooth floors are found only in dungeons with capable and careful builders.

Natural Stone Floors: The floor of a natural cave is as uneven as the walls. Caves rarely have flat surfaces of any great size. Rather, their floors have many levels. Some adjacent floor surfaces might vary in elevation by only a foot, so that moving from one to the other is no more difficult than negotiating a stair step, but in other places the floor might suddenly drop off or rise up several feet or more, requiring Climb checks to get from one surface to the other. Unless a path has been worn and well marked in the floor of a natural cave, it takes 2 squares of movement to enter a square with a natural stone floor, and the DC of Balance and Tumble checks increases by 5. Running and charging are impossible, except along paths.

Special Floors
Slippery: Water, ice, slime, or blood can make any of the dungeon floors described in this section more treacherous. Slippery floors increase the DC of Balance and Tumble checks by 5.

1) Smooth ice might be slippery, but it does not prevent charging or even moving unless the floor itself does. See the Sleet Storm spell. Slippery surfaces do not slow movement, they add to balance or tumble DCs.

2) Basically, you need some obstacles, vegetation, dense rubble, or natural stone floors for movement to be slowed. All of these assume a certain amount of non-flat surface and most of them assume a certain amount of hazards that come up from the surface (e.g. rubble, bumps in the floor, etc.).

3) The Jump skill gives you minimum height (especially at the edges) over a hazardous surface and since hazardous surfaces which slow movement have "protruding stuff" in them (one way or another, see above), you cannot jump over them unless you get some real serious height. If you do that, you are in the "cube" above the square that slowed down movement and are no longer going in a direct line.

If jumping means that the square does not hamper your movement, then the rule about passing through squares that hamper your movement is irrelevant.

...

Certainly. Which is why knowing the nature of the terrain in a specific example is important.

The rule is that you cannot charge across difficult terrain or terrain that slows movement. Your ice example is not such a case.

The Jump skill does not state that you can use it to jump over difficult terrain and avoid the movement penalty, the Charge attack does not state that you can jump over difficult terrain and still charge, the Leap Attack feat indicates that you cannot normally jump while charging, and if you take the position that you can only jump during a move action (as per one interpretation of the Jump skill), these last two disallow jumping while charging at all, let alone over difficult terrain.

The rules do not support an interpretation of jumping over difficult terrain while charging, this is a DM adjudication outside the normal rules.