Pathfinder 2E I think I am giving up on PF2ER

[Retreater]

Regaining consciousness in 10 minutes during combat isn't very helpful so not exactly this immortality comparison you started with. The player is still down and subject to damage other than direct strikes so someone still has to use a couple of actions to either heal at range or walk over and use a heal which depletes some of the player's action economy.

Right. But you're only going to die if the GM targets you while you're down and no longer a threat. (Sure you could still take damage with an area effect spell, but that's fairly uncommon - especially when the enemy can target more viable opponents who are still in the battle.)
You're likely only going to die if the GM specifically has it out for you.

 

[Retreater]

I think thats because PF2 is also an encounters game parading around as a traditional fantasy RPG. I had some of the same issues while playing it.

Agreed. It is also a miniatures skirmish game. It is just wearing more makeup to hide it than 4E did.

 

[Velderan]

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I think a game must be lethal or imbalanced to be fun. And yes, I have had deaths in PF2 - a couple TPKs and one that was a single death when a character remained behind so others could escape.

I think the "traditional RPG tension" (like you get in games like TSR-era D&D, Warhammer Fantasy, Call of Cthulhu) is easier to get in PF2 than 4E. It's just so rare to have challenges outside of encounters to really mean anything.
Do you get lingering injuries? Do you start any adventuring day without max resources? Do you get mummy rot or lycanthropy which isn't just hand-waved away with an easy check? Can you be threatened by a single opponent? Does a single opponent have the abilities to challenge the party outside of combat - can it hide or disguise itself? Does it have immunities that create a puzzle or other unique challenge?

These sort of questions used to be hard-wired into the game. Now it's an "advanced GM tool" that might be seen as cheating to players who expect to always expend 25% of their resources in a fight.

You're not, it's just the comparison to immortality that I wanted to push back on. I know you've posted before that your groups previously actually found the game to be too difficult, so it seemed strange.

Assuming you mean what I think you do, I agree 100% that traditional RPG tension is harder to achieve in more modern games like PF2e, 5e, and such. Players have a lot more ways to overcome adversity and depending on the structure of the adventure, recovery can be much easier than games like AD&D where spell slots were harder to come by, natural healing was slower, and damage was to be avoided because 0 HP was typically death. That's part of the reason I enjoy running Call of Cthulhu 1-shots. I ordered the new Pendragon books yesterday and am interested in checking that game out further since what I've read so far makes me think it will create a drastically different game experience.

 

[Velderan]

Right. But you're only going to die if the GM targets you while you're down and no longer a threat. (Sure you could still take damage with an area effect spell, but that's fairly uncommon - especially when the enemy can target more viable opponents who are still in the battle.)
You're likely only going to die if the GM specifically has it out for you.

I don't target downed players specifically but if AoE damage hits them or as @SpellObjectEnthusiast pointed out, persistent damage, they can still die. I don't change an enemy's tactics just because a player is unconscious. If they have a breath weapon they'll use whenever possible, they'll continue to do so and if the player is in the area..

 

[Retreater]

You're not, it's just the comparison to immortality that I wanted to push back on. I know you've posted before that your groups previously actually found the game to be too difficult, so it seemed strange.

Ok, so I can see the confusion.
And I've honestly had trouble GMing most of the post-2000 era F20 games (3.x/PF1, 4E, 5E, PF2) for this reason.
The games' challenge comes from encounters, designed to ramp up with ever-increasing threats across several categories:
1) Tactics
2) Terrain
3) Increased monster abilities and HP

Eventually, there is only so difficult you can go in these categories that you reach a TPK. How can an encounter-based game stay fun without ever-increasing the challenges of the encounters?
In a story-based game, you can keep the interest in the narrative. In a mystery, keep creating mysteries. But in a game about fighting where you're allowed to only push the combat to the X Level to threaten the group only to 25% of their abilities? You're gonna mess up. It doesn't matter how experienced of a GM you are. It doesn't matter how tight the math is. Just by trying to keep them on their toes and keep it interesting, you're going to wipe out the party.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Do you get lingering injuries? Do you start any adventuring day without max resources? Do you get mummy rot or lycanthropy which isn't just hand-waved away with an easy check? Can you be threatened by a single opponent? Does a single opponent have the abilities to challenge the party outside of combat - can it hide or disguise itself? Does it have immunities that create a puzzle or other unique challenge?

Drained reduces max HP and can last multiple days after being inflicted. ex: Yellow Mold - Hazards - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

Various afflictions can cause enfeebled, clumsy, etc can similarly last multiple days. These cannot be removed without a 3rd rank spell (which can fail) or multiple days of recovery. ex: Bubonic Plague - Diseases - Afflictions - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

Mummy Rot exists at various degrees of severity and cannot be removed without a 4th rank spell (which can fail). ex: Bog Mummy - Monsters - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

Lycantropy exists and cannot be removed without a 4th rank spell (which can fail). ex: Werewolf - Monsters - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

Any PL+5 single opponent will be nearly mathematically impossible for a normal party to beat. ex: pit a level 3 party against this guy Young Horned Dragon - Monsters - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database . He'll crit an optimized character on a roll of 11 or higher and can only be hit on a roll of 18+.

Enemies can have skill profienciencies. See the horned dragon above - it has very high proficiencies in stealth and deceptions + knows the Humanoid Form+Vanishing Tracks spells.

Lots of enemies have a significant number of immunities or resistances: notably golems with Antimagic (Wood Golem - Monsters - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database) or anything incorporeal resisting most every damage type (Wraith - Monsters - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database )

 

[Retreater]

Drained reduces max HP and can last multiple days after being inflicted.

It's also a fantastically rare condition.

Various afflictions can cause enfeebled, clumsy, etc can similarly last multiple days. These cannot be removed without a 3rd rank spell (which can fail) or multiple days of recovery.

I've never had a character fail a save on a disease or other affliction.

Any PL+5 single opponent will be nearly mathematically impossible for a normal party to beat.

Well yeah, I can kill a party. It doesn't make the challenge interesting.

Enemies can have skill profienciencies. See the horned dragon above - it has very high proficiencies in stealth and deceptions + knows the Humanoid Form+Vanishing Tracks spells.

I guess if you make it a spellcaster, it can be a little more interesting.

But let me ask you, if you've ever played/GMed a Pathfinder adventure, which should highlight the very best designers in the game using the system as it is intended, which of the two following scenarios sounds more likely?

1) The party has been traveling for days through the primeval forest. They have noticed elk and other large game impaled as if by a massive spear, but there's never any evidence of something having moved through the underbrush. Here and there they see bark ripped off trees, almost as if a claw was carving runes in the trunks. As they travel more deeply into the ancient woods, it is becoming clear that they are in the hunting grounds of a terrifying predator.
When camping one night, the ranger catches a glimpse of a logger whose attire is torn and bloodied. "Gods ... help me ..." the man begs. (this is the dragon in humanoid form.)
The ranger steps forward to investigate before being separated from his companions by a wall of thorns.
The logger laughs and reveals his true draconic form. Taking to the air, it sprays a cloud of poison on the sleeping party. It flies off, the party coughing and attempting to put on their armor. When will the creature return for another pass? Will they remain sitting ducks out here in the woods? They must travel to find shelter against this creature or force it down to fight.

OR

2) Here's a glade battlemap, approximately 20 x 20 squares. These are the squares where the dragon starts. Roll initiative. The dragon fights until dead.

So I will posit that the designers don't intend you to play the game as I described in Example 1. If so, that's what they would publish. And they would make these abilities default in the monsters. And they would give more lingering injuries, more difficult to treat afflictions, etc.

 

[Incenjucar]

...why would an adventure steal the roleplay from the players by telling them what they do?

Edit: Lingering effects are mostly just really annoying death spirals.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That's pretty much been my experience. We've had 1 TPK, otherwise most of the severe encounters end up with a player or two being dropped to 0 HP but the group pulls through. If I was the type of GM to target unconscious players, we'd definitely have a dead PC each session but I think that's the same general issue you have with any TTRPG where 0 HP doesn't immediately equal death. At least from my experience.

I'm of the opinion that structural features of the game make it unlikely a PC will die while others in the same group live except under very unusual circumstances or cases where the GM is having NPCs do coup de graces. The way dying and wounded is handled pretty much assures this, even the clarified version.

 

[Retreater]

...why would an adventure steal the roleplay from the players by telling them what they do?

I'm not saying that the actions of the characters would be written, but there would be the possibility that such a scene could unfold with the design of the adventure. There would be signs, portents, clues, that would lead to encounters rather than just isolated encounters on a battlegrid with no motivations for the enemies, no tie-in for the rest of the world.
When you buy an AP, you get "here's a pointless fight with a dragon that fights to the death."