Pathfinder 2E I think I am giving up on PF2ER

[Velderan]

I really tried Pathfinder 2, but it's far too rigid and inflexible.

I still can't fathom why anyone looked at the troubles D&D 4 brought WotC and decided "let's take the most extreme aspects of that game!"

Just like D&D 4, a Pathfinder 2 adventure feels not like D&D, but specifically D&D4 and PF2 respectively. That is, you need to set up a PF2 adventure specifically as such, as evidenced by Paizo's adventure paths - they clearly come across as PF2 adventures, not very useful for general D&D usage.

That's the core of these systems' downfall. It just doesn't feel like D&D anymore.

In contrast, OD&D, AD&D, 3E and 5E all feel much MUCH more interoperable, and an adventure written for one system can easily be run for another ruleset.

I love the martial combat system, and really tried to stick with PF2, running more than an entire adventure path (all 20 levels).

But in the end the inflexible "set piece" mentality of combat just wore me down. A number of plain bad subsystems didn't help.

Had I gotten the feeling "this can be a good system, it just isn't for me" that would have been one thing. But that's not my takeaway. Just like with 4E I'm convinced PF2 is fundamentally and fatally flawed, not useful to run D&D-like campaigns, spending far too much effort on controlling and limiting both the game and the gamers. In the end, the extra control and balance just isn't worth the extra clutter and the heavy toll on pure gameplay fun.

That hasn't been my experience at all. I'm running the Abomination Vaults AP and it feels just like any D&D dungeon crawl adventure I've ever played in tone and story. Having played quite a bit of 5e, the adventure would work just fine being converted over. Reading ahead for the AP I'm running next (Stolen Fate), I don't get a significantly different vibe in the adventure being presented.

I will say I'm not a huge fan of some of the subsystems (crafting and counteracting come to mind), but they're easy enough to just ignore like I've done with any other TTRPG I've ever played that I didn't like certain bits of. As I mentioned in a previous post, I have no issues in any game just making a ruling and moving on. My players trust that I'm not out to screw anyone over and them having fun is usually the reason I just wing it and move on when something doesn't seem like it fits.

 

[Velderan]

Honestly, what I found is that in PF2 you either TPK or everyone lives and I dont really think thats a problem in of itself. Considering the game is a tactical team exercise that makes a lot of sense. Unless, of course, you are coming at it from old school perspective where single character death should be common.

That's pretty much been my experience. We've had 1 TPK, otherwise most of the severe encounters end up with a player or two being dropped to 0 HP but the group pulls through. If I was the type of GM to target unconscious players, we'd definitely have a dead PC each session but I think that's the same general issue you have with any TTRPG where 0 HP doesn't immediately equal death. At least from my experience.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

I'm running the Abomination Vaults AP and it feels just like any D&D dungeon crawl adventure I've ever played in tone and story. Having played quite a bit of 5e, the adventure would work just fine being converted over. Reading ahead for the AP I'm running next (Stolen Fate), I don't get a significantly different vibe in the adventure being presented.

Agree.

I've also done the opposite: Running a PF1 adventure (RotRL) and converting it to PF2. No significant issues.

 

[payn]

That's pretty much been my experience. We've had 1 TPK, otherwise most of the severe encounters end up with a player or two being dropped to 0 HP but the group pulls through. If I was the type of GM to target unconscious players, we'd definitely have a dead PC each session but I think that's the same general issue you have with any TTRPG where 0 HP doesn't immediately equal death. At least from my experience.

Yeap, thats an age old debate. Should a GM attack downed player characters for kills? Often, its looked at as the intelligence of the foe. A mindless hungry monster probably would, and intelligent foe probably would consider the next threat. I think its often more meta in that as to combat, even for old schoolers, is a team affair. Both sides are looking at total victory as primary concern. YMMV.

 

[Retreater]

Yeah, this is just a tiny exaggeration.

If anything, it's the smallest of exaggerations.

Using a hero point while dying allows you to stabilize with 0 HP. Someone still needs to heal you to get you on your feet.

Sure. You have how many people trained in Medicine or with access to healing magic in your party? But it's automatic recovery in any case. Maybe in as little as 10 minutes.

From AoN:

If you are unconscious and at 0 Hit Points, but not dying, you naturally return to 1 Hit Point and awaken after sufficient time passes. The GM determines how long you remain unconscious, from a minimum of 10 minutes to several hours. If you receive healing during this time, you lose the unconscious condition and can act normally on your next turn.

You also still increase your wounded condition

Not if you spend a Hero Point to stabilize.

From AoN:

• Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to avoid death. You can do this when your dying condition would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don't gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don't lose it or decrease its value.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Additional played experience -

I have had two PC deaths in my campaigns - one due to critical hit massive damage and a second due to persistent damage. Neither are things that Hero Points can help much with.

I have had 2 other instances where critical hits could have caused instant death due to massive damage, had I rolled higher on my damage rolls. I additionally had a case where a PC just barely survived being disintegrated, due to rolling a clutch crit success on her save after being targeted by the spell at low health.

 

[Velderan]

If anything, it's the smallest of exaggerations.


Sure. You have how many people trained in Medicine or with access to healing magic in your party? But it's automatic recovery in any case. Maybe in as little as 10 minutes.

From AoN:




Not if you spend a Hero Point to stabilize.

From AoN:

Appreciate the correction on the last bit. Oddly, my group doesn't tend to save their hero points for this use so I forgot it actually doesn't increase their wounded level. They tend to use their hero points for failed saving throws and I don't tend to give out hero points like candy so them recovering from dying tends to be from either rolling their way out or more commonly, the cleric tossing them a heal.

Regaining consciousness in 10 minutes during combat isn't very helpful so not exactly this immortality comparison you started with. The player is still down and subject to damage other than direct strikes so someone still has to use a couple of actions to either heal at range or walk over and use a heal which depletes some of the player's action economy.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Oddly, my group doesn't tend to save their hero points for this use so I forgot it actually doesn't increase their wounded level. They tend to use their hero points for failed saving throws and I don't tend to give out hero points like candy so them recovering from dying tends to be from either rolling their way out or more commonly, the cleric tossing them a heal.

This matches my experience with all 3 different parties I've run pf2 for.

 

[Retreater]

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I think a game must be lethal or imbalanced to be fun. And yes, I have had deaths in PF2 - a couple TPKs and one that was a single death when a character remained behind so others could escape.

I think the "traditional RPG tension" (like you get in games like TSR-era D&D, Warhammer Fantasy, Call of Cthulhu) is easier to get in PF2 than 4E. It's just so rare to have challenges outside of encounters to really mean anything.
Do you get lingering injuries? Do you start any adventuring day without max resources? Do you get mummy rot or lycanthropy which isn't just hand-waved away with an easy check? Can you be threatened by a single opponent? Does a single opponent have the abilities to challenge the party outside of combat - can it hide or disguise itself? Does it have immunities that create a puzzle or other unique challenge?

These sort of questions used to be hard-wired into the game. Now it's an "advanced GM tool" that might be seen as cheating to players who expect to always expend 25% of their resources in a fight.

 

[payn]

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I think a game must be lethal or imbalanced to be fun. And yes, I have had deaths in PF2 - a couple TPKs and one that was a single death when a character remained behind so others could escape.

I think the "traditional RPG tension" (like you get in games like TSR-era D&D, Warhammer Fantasy, Call of Cthulhu) is easier to get in PF2 than 4E. It's just so rare to have challenges outside of encounters to really mean anything.
Do you get lingering injuries? Do you start any adventuring day without max resources? Do you get mummy rot or lycanthropy which isn't just hand-waved away with an easy check? Can you be threatened by a single opponent? Does a single opponent have the abilities to challenge the party outside of combat - can it hide or disguise itself? Does it have immunities that create a puzzle or other unique challenge?

These sort of questions used to be hard-wired into the game. Now it's an "advanced GM tool" that might be seen as cheating to players who expect to always expend 25% of their resources in a fight.

I think thats because PF2 is also an encounters game parading around as a traditional fantasy RPG. I had some of the same issues while playing it.